NEW Stick Check Procedures!

Discuss the rules of the game & the world of officiating.

Postby laxfan25 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Zeuslax wrote: I also sympathize with the coaches that can't get a quick explanation from a ref. A quick what was the issue and response is fair. Especially so the coach can become aware and attempt to ensure that the same mistake isn't repeated.

Almost every official I know, when penalizing an illegal stick, will announce what the specific violation was - too narrow, too short, illegal pocket, etc. That is a fair and reasonable thing to do. I have had coaches ask me to show them - and that we won't do. Measurements are done away from the benches and players and are not done again in the sub box. It is also not a debatable penalty.
So you will get an explanation in almost all cases, just not a demonstration and dissertation. (And of course, you'll never even have to experience it - correct, Coach S? :wink: )
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Postby Sonny on Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:24 pm

I agree laxfan25.

Zeuslax, I think you might be confusing an official's refusal to remeasure or show the official the illegal crosse - rather then simply answer a question on why the stick is illegal. Officials are instructed not to remeasure during the contest.
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Postby horn17 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:25 pm

Coach S had a point there....

We all know that pocket depth will change durring the play - espically wet days....

So with the new rule, are refs still going to let you know ..."hey its wet, its close, fix it..." or just flag it when its noticible that the mesh has expanded thus making it slightly off...since its a fixable penalty (pocket depth)....just currious.....
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Postby Jolly Roger on Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:04 pm

Players have balls on the sideline. They can check their own stick periodically and see if it's bagging out.



Jeez, I reread that and certainly hope the PC police don't arrest me for suggesting such lewd behavior to America's youth - right CATLAX?
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Postby laxfan25 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:15 pm

horn17 wrote: So with the new rule, are refs still going to let you know ..."hey its wet, its close, fix it..." or just flag it when its noticible that the mesh has expanded thus making it slightly off...since its a fixable penalty (pocket depth)....just currious.....

The only change in the "rule" has been the change in the mechanic - i.e. the number of checks and when they occur. I would expect that officials will continue to conduct the checks with the same discretion that they always have - which in my case means Yes, I will tell you that it is very close - tighten it up a little bit. Or, you are right on the edge on your width, you may want to watch it.
As I learned from my mentor in clinician's training - "we're not out there to trap people. If you can talk someone out of a penalty, that is a good thing!" If a stick is blatantly deep or narrow, you won't get that leniency, but for the most part borderline stuff will draw a friendly reminder rather than a flag.
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Postby Zeuslax on Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 pm

I should have been a little more clear with my statement. It has been my experience that 99% of refs will give a quick explanation. My statement was meant to be in a larger scale, including other areas outside of stick checks. Quite frankly, there are some refs out there that refuse to answer questions of any sort. There are very few, but it does happen. Since I'm so intimate with the rule book it rarely happens to me. :wink:

This fall we played a Canadian team and the first 6 faceoffs were illegal procedures against them. The ref would not and at one point refused to answer their coaches question as to what the problem was. It resulted in a flag on their coach as he became irate. Unfortunately, I couldn't see what the issue was either.

For a ref to provide further information or explanation after a call (unless in an educational manner during the appropriate time) is a recipe for disaster.
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Postby laxfan25 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:50 pm

Zeuslax wrote:For a ref to provide further information or explanation after a call (unless in an educational manner during the appropriate time) is a recipe for disaster.
????? Providing an explanation for a call is a recipe for disaster? I'm assuming this is a typo - right? I think a quick explanation is always good policy, one that I especially use at lower levels where kids are just learning the game, and you don't want them to repeat the same mistakes.
I don't understand why you would call 6 IP's on faceoffs and not calmly explain to the player or coach what you are observing - doesn't make sense to me. There is no prohibition on talking to players during the game - I think it is something the better ones do!
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Postby Zeuslax on Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:55 pm

laxfan25 wrote:

????? Providing an explanation for a call is a recipe for disaster? I'm assuming this is a typo - right? I think a quick explanation is always good policy, one that I especially use at lower levels where kids are just learning the game, and you don't want them to repeat the same mistakes.


Exactly....
For a ref to provide further information or explanation after a call (unless in an educational manner during the appropriate time) is a recipe for disaster.
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Postby stickdoctor on Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:18 pm

Zeuslax wrote:I should have been a little more clear with my statement. It has been my experience that 99% of refs will give a quick explanation. My statement was meant to be in a larger scale, including other areas outside of stick checks. Quite frankly, there are some refs out there that refuse to answer questions of any sort. There are very few, but it does happen. Since I'm so intimate with the rule book it rarely happens to me. :wink:

This fall we played a Canadian team and the first 6 faceoffs were illegal procedures against them. The ref would not and at one point refused to answer their coaches question as to what the problem was. It resulted in a flag on their coach as he became irate. Unfortunately, I couldn't see what the issue was either.

For a ref to provide further information or explanation after a call (unless in an educational manner during the appropriate time) is a recipe for disaster.


Sounds like a ref with a bit of a bias against those beer-swilling hosers....
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Postby Zeuslax on Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:56 pm

Saw my second DI game yesterday and it seems like the refs are really starting to get it. Many of the fans were saying how improved the flow seemed to be compared to two weeks ago. I really didn't see any slow down in the game yesterday. Compared to the first game I saw, the stick checks absolutely killed any and all momentum. Still had some fans complaining though.
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Postby Vox on Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:43 am

Couple of items. First, a question

Is anyone keeping track of the number of illegal crosses found with the new process? I haven't heard of any process for the officials to provide post game reports which is somewhat surprising, given the "emphasis".

In 5 MCLA games I've officiated, there have been a total of 8 illegal crosses, 3 which nullified apparent goals, 3 long poles. Is this what others are finding in these early games? Is it different for NCAA (D1/D2/D3) games?

Second, and prompted by a recent posting of stick checks not slowing down the game; I'd be interested in specifics of how & when others are conducting stick checks.

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Postby btriley01 on Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:16 pm

As a face-off middie, I have had my stick checked 12 times in 4 games. There is no possible way that my stick could ever, ever be illegal. There needs to be a rule about checking a stick that many times. I understand that I could fix my stick to make it illegal, but this is absurd.

Another point to be made is the inefficiency of the stick checks. These multiple checks slow the game down, and the refs hurry through the check, even at times looking over minor details that would, in earlier times, would be completely illegal. I remember specifically a check where the ball was caught when turned to the side. I thought you were supposed to do it at least three times, but they did it once and let it go since it eventually came loose after a good shaking. It was pathetic. Something has to happen.
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Postby LaxRef on Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:50 pm

btriley01 wrote:As a face-off middie, I have had my stick checked 12 times in 4 games. There is no possible way that my stick could ever, ever be illegal. There needs to be a rule about checking a stick that many times. I understand that I could fix my stick to make it illegal, but this is absurd.


Well, there are a few things to consider.

As part of speeding up the checks, we're not writing numbers down since that would take extra time (more than you think: communicate numbers to partners, get out cards, get out pencils, write them down, put stuff away. We're probably looking at at least 5 seconds for this in an ideal situation, and often more).

If you're getting checked 3 times per game at the faceoff, I'd say the officials just aren't varying things enough. Between doing some after goals, some during timeouts, and some during faceoffs—and it doesn't have to be the faceoff middies that get checked, we can check wing players, too—there are plenty of ways to do this besides checking the faceoff guys repeatedly. And there are some officials who are so worried about having to call a stick penalty that they might keep checking you because you're legal.

However, if you're a stud player and happen to get checked before a faceoff here, then after you scored a goal there, then during a timeout because another official saw you make sick dodge and couldn't comprehend how the ball stayed in, then checking you three times a game might make more sense.

I doubt anyone is doing it to pick on you, and—as you say—your stick is legal, so all the attention you are attracting is helping your team if you happen to have any teammates with illegal gear.

btriley01 wrote:Another point to be made is the inefficiency of the stick checks. These multiple checks slow the game down, and the refs hurry through the check, even at times looking over minor details that would, in earlier times, would be completely illegal. I remember specifically a check where the ball was caught when turned to the side. I thought you were supposed to do it at least three times,


Thinking doesn't make it so. There's no rule on this sort of thing; we'll often repeat it to confirm before we throw the flag. One rule of thumb—not widely distributed yet, but it will be soon—is that if any aspect of the check is taking more than 5 seconds, give the stick the benefit of the doubt and move on. In other words, if you think it's under 6.5" but you're really having to "work" to get the tape measure in the right spot to say it's under, just move on to the next part of the check since the stick is not clearly illegal.

btriley01 wrote: but they did it once and let it go since it eventually came loose after a good shaking. It was pathetic. Something has to happen.


If this is what happened, you may be in the afforementioned situation of having had officials who were trying not to make the illegal stick calls. I don't know what happened, but if I had to shake the stick to try to dislodge the ball, there would have been a flag.

This is an issue of consistency, and I guess I don't know what you can do to get people to toss aside their personal philosophies and line up behind a unified philosophy. If you have any ideas, let me know. Maybe we could establish "Re-Education Centers," where we could ship non-compliant officials for 8 weeks of indoctrination? :D
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Postby Kyle Berggren on Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:09 pm

In 4 games, I've seen 1 illegal stick in all 48 checks... Granted I'm a coach, not an official, but I'll give a quick evaluation of the rules in play.

2 games featured probably my least favorite officials, I was not excited to see the implementation. However, they were phenomenal. Checking sticks after goals, never impeding the game. We barely new it was an issue, I was very impressed. It truly was going to help the game, & get rid of illegal sticks. There were no violations in these games.

In another game, a crew waited for teams to be set after goals & time outs to check sticks. I suggested they grab the stick on the way into the time out, not after & that did not go over so well. At one point we called a timeout, & set up an EMO play in a very unique formation. Once we were set, the officials grabbed sticks while the opposing coach moved his players around to combat the formation... I know now to expect that & never to start in the formation, but sticks could have been grabbed at the time out & completed before we took the field.

I'll leave out the final game, but the bottom line is that it is completely up to the crew on how in-obtrusive they will be. An illegal stick is illegal, that's not an issue get it out of the game. But when choosing times to check sticks, we need to be efficient. I've now seen games done well, & games done not so well. I'm sure in time, it won't be an issue.
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Postby LaxRef on Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:56 pm

Kyle Berggren wrote:In 4 games, I've seen 1 illegal stick in all 48 checks... Granted I'm a coach, not an official, but I'll give a quick evaluation of the rules in play.

2 games featured probably my least favorite officials, I was not excited to see the implementation. However, they were phenomenal. Checking sticks after goals, never impeding the game. We barely new it was an issue, I was very impressed. It truly was going to help the game, & get rid of illegal sticks. There were no violations in these games.

In another game, a crew waited for teams to be set after goals & time outs to check sticks. I suggested they grab the stick on the way into the time out, not after & that did not go over so well. At one point we called a timeout, & set up an EMO play in a very unique formation. Once we were set, the officials grabbed sticks while the opposing coach moved his players around to combat the formation... I know now to expect that & never to start in the formation, but sticks could have been grabbed at the time out & completed before we took the field.

I'll leave out the final game, but the bottom line is that it is completely up to the crew on how in-obtrusive they will be. An illegal stick is illegal, that's not an issue get it out of the game. But when choosing times to check sticks, we need to be efficient. I've now seen games done well, & games done not so well. I'm sure in time, it won't be an issue.


The next issue of Stripes, the MDOC Newsletter, will have a piece on the new mechanics. I thought it was prett clear that we were to try to be unobtrusive, and that the reason for doing the checks after a goal, before a faceoff, or during a timeout was to avoid interrupting the flow. Doing one after a timeout makes no sense, and if you're going to do that you might as well say "Do them during any dead ball."

FWIW, I had my first game Friday and there were 4 illegal sticks out of 12 checked, two short and two long. All 4 were for the ball not rolling out, with two failing for the "side rollout" test and two for the "front rollout" test. One goal was disallowed.
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