NEW Stick Check Procedures!

[Sonny]

Just for clarification, I had approached the ref after the game. I am not complaining....I just didn't realize he couldn't remeasure it or anything like that at that point. Oh well, live and learn.

Sometimes equipment & sticks become illegal through play. While officials generally provide courtesy equipment checks before a game, referees can only make an actually determination during a game & enforce a penalty if appropriate.

Measuring a stick after a game is frankly pointless. The officials don't know if the stick has been manipulated since the first check and that fact alone doesn't necessarily prove that the first check was invalid.

Measuring a stick a 2nd time for the coach or bench area after it has been deemed illegal invites skepticism, dissent, verbal abuse, and more.

[LaxRef]

I had a player who's stick was measured before the game by the head ref, found to be legal then checked mid game and found to be illegal. I asked for the ref to tell me what was wrong with it (big difference between 1 and 3 minute unreleasables) and was told that they couldn't go into it.

I honestly believe that if the head coach asks for an explanation the explanation be given. I dont know if it was just the ref that I had that game or if it is common practice not to get into stick penalties but I still feel really sore about it.

I have no problem with quickly telling a coach what is wrong with the stick (too short, head is pinched/too narrow, pocket is too deep, etc.) - but referees are instructed not to remeasure at all. That's where the problem comes in.

They should be able to "go into that" without any problem and keep the game moving along.

I agree. There is no problem with telling the coach what is wrong,but we aren't supposed to get drawn into an argument over how we're conducting the test by demonstrating it for the coach. A simple "The head is less than six-and-a-half inches at the widest point" is enough. Some officials, though, misinterpret the "we don't demonstrate" for "I'll go to my grave before I reveal why I flagged this stick!"

The other issue is the stick that was checked pre-game and then gets flagged during the game. As we all know—laxfan25 has a great story about this—the stick we check pregame isn't always the one that we check during the game; some players have their "legal" stick and their "illegal" stick. Secondly, most officials when doing a pre-game check know to say, "This stick is legal now, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't become illegal during play," especially for a stick that is just at 6.5 inches or which has a pocket which is just shallow enough. We have no control over what happens to those sticks during play. Personally, I err on the side of saying the stick is illegal during the pre-game check if it's borderline, but I err on the side of not flagging it during the game if it's borderline.

[horn17]

LAX REF-

Are there specific requirements on turning the stick to make sure the ball falls out.....and also is there a limit on that? My concern is the following...

I had a ref call a stick for a ball sticking in it, we watched him do it, not to mention he rolled the ball out of it 12 times, each time gettting progressively slower, basically doing it to the point that the ball was sticking....which was funny when the other ref that tried it right after him - said it was fine, however was overruled by the other official.....do you guys usually use the same procedures per ref, I get frustrated when one ref does it one way, and the other does it another way....no system????

By the way, the ref that threw the penalty....everystick he checked was illegal that game, all 4 of them.....


I picked up a diffrent on the sideline, and demostrated to the opposing coach (at his request on what the difference between a slow roll and a constant steady motion), who was just as frustrated as me at the situation - and got an unsportsmanlike game miscondunct for it.....so i learned to never pick up another stick on the sideline

[vote4pedro!]

I have to agree that the ways refs roll the balls out of heads has become very iffy. We've also had experiences where the head is tilted so slowly that just about any stick would be deemed illegal. I would think the rule is to prevent a Bill McGlone type stick where the head is jerked upside down and the ball still won't come out, and not one where it barely sticks. Also what is the difference in the stick penalties as far as 1 or 3 minute as well as which penalties are you allowed to adjust the stick and allow it to re-enter play.

[LaxRef]

There are a number of issues here.

First of all, the ONLY times you can EVER have a 1:00 stick penalty are:

(1) Deep pocket.
(2) Bottom part of weaving not firmly attached to the throat of the crosse.

These situations are the ONLY ones where the crosse can return if adjusted.

Then, under "Appendix I: Stick Check," it says "As the crosse is
rotated forward from 90 degrees, the ball should roll out of head toward the ground." The accompanying picture shows the ball rolling out of the head with the stick about 15 degrees from vertical. It always bothered me that it wasn't defined more clearly, so I submitted the following A.R., which is now in both the NCAA and NFHS manuals:

A.R. 6. During the crosse inspection, the officials discover that the ball does not roll
freely from the pocket, with the ball either remaining in the pocket when the head
is rotated toward the ground and held horizontally or the ball sticking momentarily
before rolling out. RULING: Three-minute nonreleasable penalty and the stick is
removed from the game whether the ball is being held by the head or by the stringing.
(Exception: If the pocket is too deep and the officials feel that the pocket depth is the
reason the ball will not release, a one-minute nonreleasable penalty may be assessed and
the crosse may return if adjusted.)

This makes it clear that the crosse is illegal if the ball is still in it when the crosse is horizontal. However, it does not say that the stick is legal if it falls out at some lesser angle. There is nothing here about the speed of rotation; I would argue that if the ball is still in the stick at horizontal, it is illegal, no matter what the speed of rotation, since the implication of Appendix I is that the ball should be rolling out much earlier. My officials association told us to flag it if the ball is still in the stick at 45 degrees from vertical. Most officials will rotate at a reasonable speed, but I don't think "That's too slow!" is a good defense.

Note the wording of the exception to A.R. 6: it doesn't matter if the strings are holding the ball in, the only way you can give it 1:00 is if the pocket is deep and you think the deep pocket is the reason it won't release. So, pocket not deep and ball sticks, 3:00 NR. Pocket deep and ball gets caught on plastic, 3:00 NR.

[TexOle]

I have had numerous problems with the throat being to narrow and the ball not rolling out. I made the mistake of trying to show a coach and have it fall it correctly on the demonstration. It was a close game with a coach notorious for riding the refs. I think we ejected 5 players from his team during the 4 hour HS game. I have never made that mistake again. Going off that I have found that if you are going to make that call then you better be sure that the stick is illegal. This was a major issue in MN last year for HS, and I liked when we stoped clamping down so hard on the issue. I think it helped the flow of the game.

The biggest problem is face off guys. These new sticks are cut so close to the measurements that some of the slightest bends from a face off can make them illegal.

I would love to sit in on the measurements of an NCAA game know how they handle these situations.

[murphlaxtx]

true enough. I won't argue with that. I just never really worried about it. It's not like you can get the 3 minutes back anyway.

[cjwilhelmi]

Just to play devil's advocate....

What is the real problem with showing the coach how the stick is illegal. It may take an extra minute or two and if it really is illegal than the ref should have no problem. But if the ref is douptful in his decision to flag it for 3 minutes unreleasable then he shouldn't. It would almost keep refs accountable if they have to show the coach how the stick is illegal.

[Sonny]

Just to play devil's advocate....

What is the real problem with showing the coach how the stick is illegal. It may take an extra minute or two and if it really is illegal than the ref should have no problem. But if the ref is douptful in his decision to flag it for 3 minutes unreleasable then he shouldn't. It would almost keep refs accountable if they have to show the coach how the stick is illegal.

Measuring a stick a 2nd time for the coach or bench area after it has been deemed illegal invites skepticism, dissent, verbal abuse, and more.

Every coach, asst. coach, and player on the bench would argue otherwise if it was a borderline call. The ref's decision should be considered final.

[murphlaxtx]

Just to play devil's advocate....

What is the real problem with showing the coach how the stick is illegal. It may take an extra minute or two and if it really is illegal than the ref should have no problem. But if the ref is douptful in his decision to flag it for 3 minutes unreleasable then he shouldn't. It would almost keep refs accountable if they have to show the coach how the stick is illegal.

Measuring a stick a 2nd time for the coach or bench area after it has been deemed illegal invites skepticism, dissent, verbal abuse, and more.

Every coach, asst. coach, and player on the bench would argue otherwise if it was a borderline call. The ref's decision should be considered final.

I agree with Sonny. After thinking about it and how a stick can change form during a game, a second measurement can cause problems.

[laxfan25]

Just to play devil's advocate....

What is the real problem with showing the coach how the stick is illegal. It may take an extra minute or two and if it really is illegal than the ref should have no problem. But if the ref is douptful in his decision to flag it for 3 minutes unreleasable then he shouldn't. It would almost keep refs accountable if they have to show the coach how the stick is illegal.

As Sonny said, it can lead to a prolonged discussion with coaches that are not unbiased in their opinion - if I flag a stick for being illegal, you can be assured it was not borderline, because I assume that the coach will check for himself after the game. On a measurement call, the coach may say "you measured it wrong, your tape measure was bent, you measured in the wrong spot, etc". I will always tell WHY it was illegal, but will not re-measure.
For a ball that doesn't come out - I will test several times, and if it sticks, I ususally like to bring it to the table with the stick held upside down - that cuts down on the arguments.

The thing to remember is that this new mechanic was put in SPECIFICALLY at the request of the coaches - they know that the sticks are being tricked much more frequently and want to get them out of the game. when the wider throat requirement comes in in '09, that will help cut down on penalties as well.

[Rob Graff]

Any more "Real life" experience with this rule? Heard from one coach that there were over 8 stick checks at a recent game...

[TheNino57]

I rather like the idea of checking the longpoles. I don't believe that most longpoles are intentionally "cheating" but because they never seem to get checked, they don't maintain a legal pocket depth in their stick.

[CATLAX MAN]

At the Sonoma/Santa Clara game, both teams got a goal taken off the board for an illegal stick. In Sonoma's case, the ref turned the stick completely upside down with the ball in the pocket and it did not come out. I would say that is not a borderline call. The 2 games I've seen this year is that there are a number of stick checks early in the game, a few in the 3rd quarter and I have yet to see one in the 4th. It does get a little tedious to watch this, but in the 2 games I've seen, there have been 3 goals taken off the board. There does seem to be some valid reasons for cracking down here.

[benji]

* If done after a goal, the goal scorer's stick and a long pole will be obtained. If the goal scorer's stick is illegal, the goal is taken off the board and the penalty is assessed.

Is this a firm rule? By that I mean, will it ALWAYS be the goal scorers and a long pole that is checked after a goal?