NCLL teams joining MCLA?

[StrykerFSU]

1. Our current rules stipulating that we do not accept teams from schools that have varsity programs is not going to change.

That's good to know. It would then seem that it would be in the best interests of all MCLA club players to fight any attempt by their school's athletic departments to expand into Div.1 lacrosse. I don't have a dog in this fight but it sure seems like there would be an awful lot of losers if a MCLA school did add varsity lacrosse.

[Tim Whitehead]

I think with Simon Frasier in the league, you should all be calling it an "International League". Just to throw another question in there, are there any canadian teams in the NCLL? If not, where do they play?

There is a club league back east in Canada. Here's the website. http://www.cufla.org/index.php

[mholtz]

1. Our current rules stipulating that we do not accept teams from schools that have varsity programs is not going to change.

That's good to know. It would then seem that it would be in the best interests of all MCLA club players to fight any attempt by their school's athletic departments to expand into Div.1 lacrosse. I don't have a dog in this fight but it sure seems like there would be an awful lot of losers if a MCLA school did add varsity lacrosse.

I think I know what you are getting at, but I strongly disagree. We are one of the few programs in the MCLA that once was a varsity, and is now an MCLA team.

I think what you are trying to get at is that if MSU went varsity then all the players would be gone, and the coaches probably too.

This is probably correct. If MSU went D1 in the next few years we would draw significant talent from all over the country, and would have a national coaching search.

I'd be out of a job. Most of my players (I wouldn't say all) would be without a team.

I love these kids, and I love this school, but I would never, ever discourage our school from firing me in order to promote the program to Varsity.

MSU going varsity would be great for the sport, period.

Sorry if this came accross as angry. I don't mean it that way.

[Danny Hogan]

but would your club cease to function?

[mholtz]

It would, at the very least, be very changed. The players on our program right now aren't really looking for the "club" experience. I don't think that I would be interested in investing the time I do for a "traditional club".

maybe that's just me.

To answer the question, I guess it would still probably be around.

[StrykerFSU]

Matt, I understand where you are coming from and admire that you would sacrifice your job for what you believe to be the benefit of the sport but I question whether it really is all that much of a benefit.

Is a school going D1 really an improvement for the game? Yeah it's great for D1 caliber players and it's another D1 coaching position but does that outweigh the loss of a great opportunity for all the kids who currently shell out cash and work their butts off for little to no recognition in the MCLA? Does another D1 program raise the profile of the sport that much?

The answer to those questions may very well be yes. I just think that if I was college age player again and had been paying for the privilege of wearing my school's uniform only to have that opportunity taken away, I'd be pretty darned upset with just about everyone involved with that decision.

[Sonny]

Does another D1 program raise the profile of the sport that much?

Absolutely.

[Beta]

Giving up your sport for someone else's benefit is a very selfless act. But is everyone like this? Definitely not. But some are. Too bad something like that couldn't be phased in. Right now, the "club" can exist...just not to play for a championship in the MCLA.

[StrykerFSU]

But Sonny, doesn't your answer imply that the MCLA, its teams, and its players are inferior and less important than their varsity brethren? Shouldn't the MCLA be striving to distinguish itself from varsity programs given the level of dedication and sacrifice shown by members of the MCLA from the lowest benchwarmer to the president instead of penalizing its members so as not to negatively impact the NCAA? Also, whatever gain for the sport from the addition of another varsity would be hard to quantify while the impact on Joe Clublaxer would be immediately apparent.

I'm really not trying to be a pain with this and I recognize that it's hypothetical but this kind of issue needs to be anticipated by club players and presidents as it seems to have already been anticipated by the MCLA administrators to, in my relatively uninformed opinion, the detriment of the players. It's really not even an issue between club players and the MCLA, as they have already rendered a decision. Rather, it is an issue for a student group that might find itself without a home and the administrators at their school.

[Danny Hogan]

keep in mind that stryker is a former D1 guy who has spent the last couple of years in the MCLA/USLIA atmosphere...an interesting perspective

[Tim Whitehead]

Does another D1 program raise the profile of the sport that much?

Absolutely.

Agreed. What would get more kids in Michigan interested in playing lacrosse: the chance to play for Michigan State in front of 50,000 people on ESPN for the DI championship, or the chance to play for Michigan State in front of 1,000 tape delayed on CSTV for the MCLA Championship?

And this is no offense to the MCLA. Playing in the championship game was one of the highlights of my lacrosse career. But if I could have done the same thing with Syracuse of Princeton or those crazy party animals at Duke, I'd have chosen that in a second.

[laxdad03]

Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive here (and I'm sure I'll be told so soon), but I'll throw this out anyway just for discussion. Must it necessarily be THAT huge an abrupt change to go D1? We've been touting the "virtual Varsity" thing for a long time, we're arguably getting a lot better (particularly at the very top of the MCLA), and after all, by definition at MCLA schools, the present team IS already in fact "the school lacrosse team" with many of the attendant trappings and feelings to it. I'd guess that the schools most likely to transition from MCLA to NCAA would be those who are at or near the top of the MCLA now, with the bigger, more well run, better supported (school & alum & boosters & etc.) programs who are already much closer to varsity-like organizations as it is. These teams would already have the better structures, support, coaches, at least a goodly number of better players (some arguably D1 capable, or maybe at least "entry-level D1 team material"), etc. Certainly some of the players (those with the most "club" attitude and/or abilities) wouldn't continue, but might it be that at least some of the existing people and structure may persist (at those top MCLA schools -- of course the more club-like MCLA programs would have much less to maintain in any D1 transition, but again, it seems those would be less likely to try the transition anyway)? Might it be, at least at some of those schools, that the existing organization/coach/etc. might be interested in leading the charge toward NCAA status in the first place, and perhaps wouldn't necessarily be totally swept away in the first wave of a new D1 program? I don't think anyone would expect a brand new D1 program to IMMEDIATELY compete with Syracuse, Virginia, Duke, et al, "Rome can't be built in a day", but perhaps (over the period of a couple years or so, while some of the people are "finishing up" anyway) a more gradual transition might be a possibility? Just food for discussion -- ok, now feel free to fire away at my stupidity...

[TheNino57]

No one is going to "fire away at [your] stupidity," Laxdad, your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses. It seems, though, keeping in mind that Florida State has already announced its intention to go varsity in the coming years as well as the attention BYU is getting after Philadelphia Eagle's Head Coach Andy Reid contacted BYU's AD, that the schools that are making moves to varsity aren't big Div. I sized schools but rather smaller Div. II and III sized schools like Rollins College, Tennessee Wesleyan, and Westminster College. Westminster, as I understand it, will be competing in the RMLC and will be lead by former the former University of Utah Head Coach.

[laxdad03]

Thanks very much for your patience with my learning process, Nino. I'm afraid I don't know very much about Rollins and Tennessee Wesleyan, I'm not sure if they even had club lax programs at all before, to "transition away from". I know Westminster didn't until this year, and so for Coach Goodhand, going Varsity won't involve changing a great deal of momentum as an MCLA program (particularly since Varsity seems to be on the viewscreen from the beginning).

Similarly, although FSU has been MCLA/MDIA/USLIA/whatever for quite a while, they are one of the bigger and better ones with less distance to cover going toward Varsity, and Coach Harkins certainly seems to be leading the charge there. BYU is maybe as close to Varsity-like as anyone in the MCLA, and it seems not out of the realm of possibility that Coach Lamb and a good part of the crew could go along with a transition there. And at any such school, going Varsity would not be something that just suddenly happened without a lot of discussion and planning and opportunity to get things lined up in that direction over a period of a few years I'd guess, so existing club organizations and players would tend to naturally begin to morph as they see it coming (e.g. would a totally club-minded player still be so likely to sign up for FSU lacrosse over the next few years now?) I think, for the top MCLA programs, "Virtual Varsity" is already taken pretty seriously as being THE school team, whether it carries the official NCAA moniker or not (I don't think people there typically conceive of it or treat it "laxadaisically" (bad pun, I know) as "only club"); whereas at some of the other programs, it may indeed be more a "let's just play some club ball" attitude, but they might not be the programs who would likely aspire to Varsity status anyway.

So again, maybe for those schools who would seriously consider going Varsity, it might not need to be such an abrupt, earth-shaking, total house-clearing event as many people seem to trumpet (well, other than getting past the Title IX and financial issues, of course) -- and maybe that's part of why they might even be apt to consider it in the first place. Does any of that make sense?

[OAKS]

So again, maybe for those schools who would seriously consider going Varsity, it might not need to be such an abrupt, earth-shaking, total house-clearing event as many people seem to trumpet (well, other than getting past the Title IX and financial issues, of course) -- and maybe that's part of why they might even be apt to consider it in the first place. Does any of that make sense?

Well the example that a lot of people like to bring up is Navy's women's program. I'm sure the club coach at Navy was a fine coach, but when they announced plans to go varsity, they immediately went after one of the best coaches in D1 in Cindy Timchal and they gave her a lot of money. And Navy is not a powerhouse athletic program like FSU, UF, Texas, etc. I would imagine if these programs are gonna pony up the money to start a team, they're not gonna do it halfway. They're going to try to find the best coaches and the best players immediately. No one starts a program with the intention of sitting at the bottom of the pack, especially a major school. You may have some club guys making the team, and they may keep on some of the club coaches as staff or assistant coaches as they know the program, the kids, the area, etc., but I would imagine most times these schools will be trying to become as competitive as possible, and in their mind it's going to be by hiring someone with a proven track record in D1 lacrosse. It might be that the club coaches could do just as well, who knows, but in the mind of the AD, the alumni, and the other heads of the school, it just looks better on paper to do more of the 'house-clearing' that you're thinking of.