Not a surprise

[sohotrightnow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14150687/?GT1=8404

[Sonny]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14150687/?GT1=8404

It is a surprise.

What is suprising to me is that you have such little faith in the thousands and thousands of men and women that proudly serve this country.

[sohotrightnow]

No, it isn't a surprise, considering I believed it to be true since the story first became news. This reaffirms my belief.

[Campbell]

Unfortunately incidents like this paint the entire military in a bad light. In an organization as large as the Marine Corps, or the entire armed forces for that matter, there are bound to be bad people. Put guns in their hands and a feeling of inculpability and stuff like this happens. Its just sad when 99.9% of the soldiers from this country do their job with honor. Because of the situation US troops are in they must accept a great responsibility and conduct such as this should be punished severely. Otherwise it will be harder and harder for servicemen and women to do their job and earn the trust and respect of the people they defend, which I think they deserve.

[StrykerFSU]

At least sohotrightnow reserved judgement and didn't assume the guilt of our Marines from Day One. Criminals should be charged and punished regardless of their service to this country but liberals truly enjoy these stories because it hurts the cause of freedom in Iraq and further, hurts President Bush. This was no My Lai. It is always a shame when civilians are killed in conflict and I will pray for them.

The Marines, and all of our Armed Forces, are the best of this nation. They risk their lives everyday to secure freedom for a foreign people without asking for and rarely receiving the recognition they deserve. I encourage everyone to remember that the next time the media tries to demonize them.

[laxfan25]

One of the groups that I have developed much respect for during the Iraq incursion has been our professional military. A group that I have lost all respect for is the civilian leadership under this administration.
How is it possible that Donald Rumsfeld still has his job? He has been wrong on everything he has attempted, he has wrecked the Army to a large degree (such as his pronouncement last week that it will take another three years of supplemental spending bills to rebuild the military infrastructure).
Contrast that with the miltary professionals that have gone out and done the job they have been assigned, and some have been brave enough to question the mission and its application. To bring charges against these troops, even knowing how inflammatory it will be, shows their committment to their duty.
Time to give the Donald his Presidential Medal of Freedom with Paul Bremer and George Tennent and send him out hunting with the Veep.

[Rob Graff]

Cliff:

I strongly reject your statement that "but liberals truly enjoy these stories because it hurts the cause of freedom in Iraq and further, hurts President Bush" And such statements do your side of the political aisle a disservice.

Many would identify me as liberal, although I like to see myself as a centrist democrat. And I view this story as a tragedy. I don't enjoy it. Other friends of mine who are liberals don't "enjoy it." No one should "enjoy it"

The reporting of the story has nothing to do with "freedom in Iraq" - that's what the press is supposed to do. I agree that the actions that were reported, if proven, might impact Iraq because the alleged actions will impact America's reputation in Iraq, and the Arab/Islamic community as a whole. If we present ourselves as the champions of honor, the rule of law and democracy, to have even a select few of our armed forces behave in a manner contrary with those values will impact our credibility. Words are powerful, but actions that contravene the words, can nullify the impact of the message.

And I don't see any direct connection with the President - my own opinions of POTUS aside - he's not telling the soldiers what to do/not to do in each specific instance. This is not to say I approve of him or his policies in this (or any other) region - but the fact is POTUS didn't order/suggest or condone these alleged actions.

Plus there are too many other valid reasons to criticize POTUS - those inclined to do so shouldn't waste credibility criticizing him on this matter.

[sohotrightnow]

I guess my real problem is the fact that soldiers do not know who is a legitimate "enemy" (God forbid that people fight back against somebody who invades their country!) and who is a common civilian...that is why this happened in all likelihood. However, I am not going to be PC and say "I support the troops, but don't support the war." That is a cop-out that too many liberals subscribe to. I don't support what the troops are doing, because this absent-minded administration put them in an unwinnable situation where they have no real objective. Hmm, I wonder how this could have been avoided? Perhaps mind our own damn business and not invade other countries?

On a side note, if people really want to know what the war is like, they should go to YouTube and type in Iraq War. Soldiers have been filming and uploading footage that regular news channels will not show.

[laxfan25]

However, I am not going to be PC and say "I support the troops, but don't support the war." That is a cop-out that too many liberals subscribe to. I don't support what the troops are doing, because this absent-minded administration put them in an unwinnable situation where they have no real objective.

SoHot, while I agree with much of what you say, it is not a cop-out to say that you support our troops but not this war. These are the sons, daughters, mothers and fathers of your friends and neighbors - and many have been pulled from their regular lives and been dispatched to the Mideast to fight a war that was brought on by a cabel that has never even served in the military (or didn't show up for their Guard duty).
I have two brothers that served in Vietnam, one of whom enlisted in the Marines and volunteered for duty there. In about a day, he realized that that war was a total screw-up - and was racist in many ways. First, as in Iraq - we couldn't tell who the enemy was, so better to shoot first and sort 'em out later, or avenge the killing of your comrades (My Lai = Haditha). It was also racist in terms of the makeup of the US Forces. With many privileged white kids getting deferments - minorities made up a very disproportionate percentage of the ground troops.
When he returned he became active in veterans' counseling services - dealing with a "new" disorder - post-traumatic shock disorder. I can still remember as a young kid in high school, having a group of vets over at our house, talking about what they had faced and done, often in tears. One guy told about taking two Viet Cong prisoners up in a helicopter, and pushing one out - in order to get the other to talk. Water-boarding kind of pales in comparison.
The effects on the troops serving in Iraq will be some of the collateral damage of this war.

One thing I find humorous in the reporting on the insurgency in Iraq and Lebanon is the talk of asymmetric warfare - that the enemy will come out to fight and then melt back into their surroundings to pop up again another day - as if this is a new concept.
I seem to remember another conflict, one that is highly regarded by some, in which the terrorists were farmers who would be called to battle very quickly, hide on their property behind walls and try to pick off the government soldiers who would traveling down the road (not sure if they were using IED's). The gov't commanders had all sorts of complaints about how the enemy was not fighting under the current rules of war. Eventually there was a slaughter of civilians at a protest against the gov't, which led to it's eventual downfall. I'm sure the Bush administration would be firmly on the gov't side in this dispute, since it was part of the global war on terror.

The "terrorists"? American colonists, fighting the British army, with the Boston Massacre a major turning point in galvanizing popular opinion in support of independence. However, in this case the terrorists, er Minutemen, such as Nathan Hale, Patrick Henry and Paul Revere have statues in their honor and we pause to celebrate their brave actions every year.
So while we brand groups like Hizbollah as terrorists here, can you start to understand why they may be widely supported in their population? One man's terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter. The sad thing is I feel that our actions in Iraq and inaction with Israel are galvanizing the opinion of moderates in the Muslim world against the US, and it is going to take many, many years to recover. These are the people we want on OUR side, to help battle the extremists - and we are turning them against us too.

[laxfan25]

One of the great ironies of the military investigations of these murders and rapes is that the Rushes, Hannitys and O'Reillys have had to put aside their standard bashing of the "liberal media" for reporting stories like this that undermine our troops, damage their morale and hurt the US effort to bring freedom and democracy to a Iraq. Kind of hard for them to point that finger at the Pentagon.
Again, I have more respect for the military leadership and its internal justice system for moving ahead with this investigation, as well as the well-noted objections of the JAG's and others in the system to the detention system in Gitmo and Abu Graib. Gen. Geoff Miller, one of the architects of that program, was allowed to step down this week, when he should be one of the ones being investigated.

[StrykerFSU]

Rob, I apologize if I painted with too broad a brush and I wholeheartedly agree with you that this incident was a tragedy. I do, however, stand by my statement that some in this country greet these stories with satisfaction because they want the US to lose in Iraq. I do not wish to turn this thread into a debate of the War because we've done that and we make about as much progress as the cable news talking heads.

I also want to say that I have no problems with the media reporting this story. It was a tragedy and the American people need to know when we mess up. My problem with this story in particular was that from the very first report, the media tried and convicted those Marines (much like a certain case in Durham).

I also believe that the media has done this country a disservice with their overwhelmingly negative reporting on the War. This statement has been made before but warrants consideration: if WWII was covered in this manner, we would have quit after D-Day. To say that the editors of the major newspapers do not have an agenda or a politcal point of view is ludicrous to me. One only needs to read the editorial pages of the NYT, Wash Post, etc. on a regular basis to see it.

[Sonny]

Rob, I apologize if I painted with too broad a brush and I wholeheartedly agree with you that this incident was a tragedy. I do, however, stand by my statement that some in this country greet these stories with satisfaction because they want the US to lose in Iraq. I do not wish to turn this thread into a debate of the War because we've done that and we make about as much progress as the cable news talking heads.

I also want to say that I have no problems with the media reporting this story. It was a tragedy and the American people need to know when we mess up. My problem with this story in particular was that from the very first report, the media tried and convicted those Marines (much like a certain case in Durham).

I also believe that the media has done this country a disservice with their overwhelmingly negative reporting on the War. This statement has been made before but bears consideration: if WWII was covered in this manner, we would have quit after D-Day. To say that the editors of the major newspapers do not have an agenda or a politcal point of view is ludicrous to me. One only needs to read the editorial pages of the NYT, Wash Post, etc. on a regular basis to see it.

StrykerFSU is a wise young man. Go forth and multiply!

[sohotrightnow]

But why should there be positive reporting? How do you know there is progress? Maybe the media is presenting reality? Do we really need to give American citizens a false sense of hope by presenting positive stories?

[DanGenck]

At least sohotrightnow reserved judgement and didn't assume the guilt of our Marines from Day One. Criminals should be charged and punished regardless of their service to this country but liberals truly enjoy these stories because it hurts the cause of freedom in Iraq and further, hurts President Bush. This was no My Lai. It is always a shame when civilians are killed in conflict and I will pray for them.

The Marines, and all of our Armed Forces, are the best of this nation. They risk their lives everyday to secure freedom for a foreign people without asking for and rarely receiving the recognition they deserve. I encourage everyone to remember that the next time the media tries to demonize them.

I don't think there are many democrats out there that enjoy having the military look like a dog and pony show.

[jessexy]

did anyone hear that these soldiers confirmed that their is a bounty/bet between units to see which unit can kill the most Iraqis. It doesnt distinguish between civilians, Iraqi soldiers/police, and insurgants.