Minnesota Boy's Lacrosse now Varsity Sanctioned

[laxfan25]

I'm surprised laxfan25 - that the state (Michigan) doesn't set your officials rates for sanctioned H.S. games. They let your officials association do that?

Before sanctioning last year, rates were worked out with the MSLA ( a private, lacrosse-only group) and were in effect across the state. With sanctioning, the current rates have just been used by all schools. However, in sanctioned sports the MHSAA has no input on game pay rates - it is set by individual conferences. So you have some football crews that would rather work Conf A games rather than B, because the pay is better. This leads though to refs going out and soliciting games from the schools, which I don't think is a good practice.
Our MichLOA assigners do a very good job - they know the resources and their abilities and make wise selections for the games. And with several thousand games to schedule, without a central clearing house I have no idea how it would be handled without a main assigner. In other sports I know that they have conference assigners.
I also know that the MHSAA does not like having all of the refs for a sport being in one organization - divide and conquer is their goal. So while MichLOA has been very supportive in the move to sanctioned status - it is an interesting dance between the two organizations. The veteran lax officials see no benefit to breaking up MichLOA into small pieces.

[Sonny]

I'm sure the MHSAA wants competition and variety in all of their sports officials organizations. And I'm sure the veteran officials are wary of losing thier perceived spot on the totem pole if their are multiple officials organizations across the state. Sounds like you are bucking the union line just a bit too hard?

The sport grows (just like every other sport out there back in the day) and it becomes impratical to have one officials organization for the entire state or even one large metro area. Training and mentoring can probably be best handled in smaller, local groups.

Eventually, we know that our h.s. association will split into two or three organizations across the metro Atlanta area. I believe there are 10 - 15 different football and basketball H.S. officials associations in Metro Atlanta alone (not to mention the rest of the state).

In GA, the GHSA sets the pay rates for officials across the state (as they do for every other sanctioned sport). We are the 2nd highest paid sport behind football. They have slated to eliminated travel which is big concern, but they have allocated consistent pay raises (almost annually).

[Rob Graff]

And don't forget that they are talking about a 4 team state tournament...

See today's pioneer press article.

Rob

[laxfan25]

I'm sure the MHSAA wants competition and variety in all of their sports officials organizations. And I'm sure the veteran officials are wary of losing thier perceived spot on the totem pole if their are multiple officials organizations across the state. Sounds like you are bucking the union line just a bit too hard?

Just looking out for the best interests of the lacrosse officials. There aren't all that many real experienced ones out there, and we're certainly not worried about someone supplanting us. (I will be doing the state championship again this year). We would like to grow the number of officials, and are always recruiting.

The sport grows (just like every other sport out there back in the day) and it becomes impratical to have one officials organization for the entire state or even one large metro area. Training and mentoring can probably be best handled in smaller, local groups.

There was discussion on the west side of the state of joining the West Michigan Officials Association, which is made up of football and basketball officials. But it is hard to see how that would improve training of lacrosse officials, when you would be diluting lax refs into a much larger organization that could care less about the sport.

Eventually, we know that our h.s. association will split into two or three organizations across the metro Atlanta area. I believe there are 10 - 15 different football and basketball H.S. officials associations in Metro Atlanta alone (not to mention the rest of the state).

One of the requirements to form an officials association that is recognized by the MHSAA is that you need at least 30 members. Given that we have barely over 100 active lax refs in the state, and they are primarily located in the Detroit Metro area, there would only be a big enough pool in that area. We have about 15 in the West Michigan area, although the roster shows more - many are not really active.

In GA, the GHSA sets the pay rates for officials across the state (as they do for every other sanctioned sport). We are the 2nd highest paid sport behind football. They have slated to eliminated travel which is big concern, but they have allocated consistent pay raises (almost annually).

That is one big difference in your state, the rates are being set by the GHSA - the MHSAA doesn't do that here. It's nice that you're satisfied with the rate. (BTW, what are your rates for HS, JV and MS? Ours are $55 for Varsity, $47.50 for JV and $40 for MS -all 2-man rates. In discussions with refs in surrounding states we are towards the low end). What would happen if the GHSA decides that you should only earn $40 for a Varsity game? Who represents your interests? (We don't get mileage BTW -so we have nothing to lose there. With gas skyrocketing, that is a growing concern). I like having a fair, negotiated rate, just like the MDIA. I would hate to have a hodge-podge, with different rates from different schools.

[Riss]

I think overall its good for the sport but along with the already discussed potential problems with officials, there will definately be a shortage in coaches.

Right now most MN coaches have lax experience but are not affliated with the schools. The main question is now that it is varsity sanctioned, are coaches going to have to be teachers as well. There seems to be a multitude of football, bball and hockey coaches that are willing to teach gym or whatever just to be a coach, is that really going to happen for lacrosse??

I recall coaching a jv/frosh game and the opposing coach who i think was the jv hockey coach was yelling "center it" in reference to feeding the crease.

[GrayBear]

I recall coaching a jv/frosh game and the opposing coach who i think was the jv hockey coach was yelling "center it" in reference to feeding the crease.

Or the ones who try to teach their players how to catch with their "rackets".

[Dylan Dickey]

I've scanned, but have not read thoroughly, everybody's post, so I apologize if this is redundant.

One thing I've heard brought up in the past about an advantage to HS going varsity is the increased interest in local colleges to go varsity (a ways down the road, I know), as they would then become more comfortable with there being a "better" local crop to recruit from. I think, if my memory serves me, that this was one of the things that St. John's was looking for before they put more thought into going varsity.

[Sonny]

Right now most MN coaches have lax experience but are not affliated with the schools. The main question is now that it is varsity sanctioned, are coaches going to have to be teachers as well.

The current crop of coaches (non teachers, non-affliated) can still coach at the High school level. But they will probably have to shift to assistant coach or community coaches roles with the move to state sanctioning.

We went through the same thing here in GA. (Some of the continued right along in their same role at the same school.) For a non-teacher to coach at the high school level, they must become a community coach.

The certification process for a community coach is as follows: They must pay a fee, attend first aid class, attend a good sportmanship class, and attend a rules clinic. Don't quote on me on all of that, but I think its accurate.

[oldmanlax]

I have read through all of the posts and see valid arguments from everyone. My question is this, Do you want to grow, or do you want to stay in control?

Six months ago a call was put out for people to step up and help out so the sport could grow. Now people are complaining and wanting to thin out the pool of refs? This doesn't make sense to me. I crossed the line and donned stripes because I heard the kids didn't get enough games due to lack of refs. To me, that is a sad reason these kids don't get to play more lacrosse.

Even if the high school league changes some things, is that so bad? School support along with resources is what this sport needs. Now we have been brought to an even level with other sports. These kids can letter and be recognized like all of their baseball and track friends. Sanctioning is a huge step.

I noticed the negative turn in the conversations on here. We should all be excited and pumped to usher in what we've all wanted. Not second guessing and doubting what might be. I know other people posting here are closely involved with the sport. I don't mean to discount your concerns because they are legitimate. My only hope is that people could positively put their energy into squashing these issues, not ranting and making them worse

[Riss]

I dont think anyone is ranting and complaining: People have addressed accurate concerns that need to be answered if lacrosse is going to be successful as a full sanctioned sport. Every single person on this message board is a lax fan and wants to see the sport grow- however, its important to make sure that all steps are in the right place. If there arent enough refs and coaches, varsity lacrosse will fall flat on its face and the momentum will be lost.

Sonny- Is that "community coaching" thing true in Minnesota, or just an example from Georgia? If so, it'd be a great way to keep the lacrosse savy folks in charge of programs.

Postive energy abounds, but careful planning is required.

[Sonny]

Sonny- Is that "community coaching" thing true in Minnesota, or just an example from Georgia? If so, it'd be a great way to keep the lacrosse savy folks in charge of programs.

I have no idea. Just addressing a frequent concern I've seen in other communities when the sport is sanctioned by the state.

[Gopherlax29]

can anyone link me to the pioneer press or star trib article? (Rob Maybe?)

Also, with the coaching question, how does that affect guys like Horn and myself? Assistant coaches already...?

[mnref]

can anyone link me to the pioneer press or star trib article? (Rob Maybe?)

I don't know if they published something else in the print edition but here is are the online stories:

Pioneer Press (has a bit more detail)
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/high_school/14614778.htm

Star Tribune (seems more focused on the Dance Line vote)
http://www.startribune.com/526/story/442049.html

Matt

[LaxRef]

I have read through all of the posts and see valid arguments from everyone. My question is this, Do you want to grow, or do you want to stay in control?

I think people want the growth while keeping other things the same. And you're right: you probably can't have it all.

One thing that will annoy people is that supposedly the playoffs next year will consist of only 4 Varsity teams (the club league can do whatever they want, of course). This is a far cry from the 24 teams that make the playoffs under the current system. Personally, I think 24 is too many and 4 is too few, but this will sort itself out over a few years.

I think the most interesting thing we're waiting on is to find out how many schools make boys' lacrosse varsity for next season.

[mnref]

One thing that will annoy people is that supposedly the playoffs next year will consist of only 4 Varsity teams (the club league can do whatever they want, of course). This is a far cry from the 24 teams that make the playoffs under the current system. Personally, I think 24 is too many and 4 is too few, but this will sort itself out over a few years.

I think the most interesting thing we're waiting on is to find out how many schools make boys' lacrosse varsity for next season.

The MSHSL is likely to expect that schools commit to varsity status by early fall and thus is only expecting a handful of teams to reach varsity status for the 2007 season. If they have 10 teams or less that go varsity, which is quite likely, picking the top 4 to play for the championship is not unreasonable.

Of course the MBSLA (aka club) will also have a championship. I expect they will reduce the number of teams in the playoffs as teams cross over to varsity status. That being said, I've heard rumblings that since half the teams are already in the playoffs, it only takes one additional game to include all the teams...

Anyone care to speculate which schools are most likely to "go varsity" for 2007?

Matt