Game Situation

[LaxRef]

This is being hotly debated elsewhere:

Score is 0-0. A1 brings the ball up the field and is pushed by B1, flag down. A1 scores a goal. Then Coach B requests an inspection on A1 before play restarts, and A1's crosse is determined to be illegal.

What's the score, who's in the box for how long, and who gets the ball?

[Sonny]

(Assume NCAA rules....)

No goal. B1 serves 30 seconds for push (techical foul). A1 serves penalty for illegal crosse (1 or 3 min). Simultaneous fouls, players are locked in for first 30 seconds. B team gets the ball (due to less total penalty time served).

[laxfan25]

No goal. 3 min NR on A1, stick is removed from the game and the ball is awarded to Team B at midfield.The push call was negated by the goal scored during the live-ball sequence. In the next dead ball the crosse was found to be illegal. One of the consequences of that is the goal is removed from the scorebook, but that does not then turn the situation into simultaneous fouls, IMO.

[LaxRef]

(Assume NCAA rules....)

No goal. B1 serves 30 seconds for push (techical foul). A1 serves penalty for illegal crosse (1 or 3 min). Simultaneous fouls, players are locked in for first 30 seconds. B team gets the ball (due to less total penalty time served).

The big debate is whether B1 serves for the push, since agoal was scored.

These are not simultaneous fouls, since one is live-ball and the other is dead ball. However, *if* B1 serves, the 30 seconds would be NR under Rule 7-2-d.

[shrekjr]

I love you Sonny!

I still say you can't negate a defensive technical foul because of a non-existant goal. I don't care that a goal was awarded then taken away. That goal does not exist on the scoreboard, or in either team's official book, and no player is credited with a goal...because there was no goal. Therefore, no goal = enforcement of the defensive technical foul.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

[shrekjr]

BTW, thanks LaxRef for looking for other opinions.

[Danny Hogan]

not to twist it, but here is another situation: (HS Federation rules) This one actually happened:

A1 advances ball, pushed by defender B1. A1 Scores on a bounce shot.

No goal awarded, flag down situation kills play when the shot bounced.

B1 gets :30

Correct?

[laxfan25]

not to twist it, but here is another situation: (HS Federation rules) This one actually happened:

A1 advances ball, pushed by defender B1. A1 Scores on a bounce shot.

No goal awarded, flag down situation kills play when the shot bounced.

B1 gets :30

Correct?

Uh no! That would be a bad call.
The Fed book (same as NCAA here), on slow whistle situations, has the following on when it is killed;
ART. 11 . . . When the ball hits the ground (not on a shot), the slow whistle is terminated.

So the bounce shot should have counted as a goal, and the tech foul is waved off. (unless the goal is disallowed - right Shrek? )

[LaxRef]

not to twist it, but here is another situation: (HS Federation rules) This one actually happened:

A1 advances ball, pushed by defender B1. A1 Scores on a bounce shot.

No goal awarded, flag down situation kills play when the shot bounced.

B1 gets :30

Correct?

As LF25 says, bad, bad call! I've seen coaches who thought you couldn't do a bounce shot on a flag down, but never an official!

[Lax_Stats]

No! There is a difference between a bounce shot and a bounce pass. A bounce shot is still a shot until it has been determined that a goal isn't going to be scored as a result of the shot. A bounce pass in HS stops play immediately. If you were going to stop play on a bounce shot as soon as the ball hit the ground, you would be essentially changing the game by taking away 1 kind of shot from the attacking team and telling them they could only score on a shot in the air and not a bounce shot.

It was indeed a bad call if the ref stopped the game and/or took a goal away as well because it was scored on a bounce shot.

[Lax_Stats]

This is being hotly debated elsewhere:

Score is 0-0. A1 brings the ball up the field and is pushed by B1, flag down. A1 scores a goal. Then Coach B requests an inspection on A1 before play restarts, and A1's crosse is determined to be illegal.

What's the score, who's in the box for how long, and who gets the ball?

The correct call is as follows step by step:

Live ball Flag down on B1 for the push
A1 scores goal thus causing the flag on B1 for a technical foul to be picked up and waved off by the goal.
Play is now dead.
Coach B requests an inspection on A1 before play restarts, and A1's crosse is determined to be illegal. (Remember this is a full equipment check)
Dead ball flag down on A1
A1's goal is taken off the board
B1'a technical foul for a push is reinstated since no goal has been scored.
A1 serves 1 - 3 minute non-releasable penalty
B1 serves :30 technical

These fouls would NOT be considered simultaneous as one foul occurred during a live ball situation and the subsequent foul occurred during a dead ball situation. However, due to rule 7-2-b, B1's :30 would be considered Non-releasable and would be full time served.

Award the Ball to team B and restart the game.


LaxRef Wrote:
The big debate is whether B1 serves for the push, since a goal was scored.

Where?? Show me a recorded goal in the scorebook! A goal has not been officially scored until it has been recorded in the book
AND play has been restarted. Just because a ball passes completely through the plane of the goal does NOT mean that a goal has been scored and awarded. The referee giveth, and the referee hath taketh away. There is no phantom goal floating around to debate whether B1 should serve a penalty or not. The goal was disallowed, therefore no goal exists in this equation to determine or impact who serves what penalties and for how long.

[shrekjr]

Lax Stats,

Welcome to the minority who will go to their referee graves believing this is the correct call.

[LaxRef]

LaxRef Wrote:
The big debate is whether B1 serves for the push, since a goal was scored.

Where?? Show me a recorded goal in the scorebook! A goal has not been officially scored until it has been recorded in the book
AND play has been restarted. Just because a ball passes completely through the plane of the goal does NOT mean that a goal has been scored and awarded. The referee giveth, and the referee hath taketh away. There is no phantom goal floating around to debate whether B1 should serve a penalty or not. The goal was disallowed, therefore no goal exists in this equation to determine or impact who serves what penalties and for how long.

Would your ruling be any different if the goal had been officially reported and recorded in the scorebook before the equipment check?

Here's the real question, and if you can answer this correctly you'll see why I don't think B1 should serve: What is the intent of the rule that tells us to wave off a technical foul flag if a goal is scored? (When the dust all settles on this—I've submitted this to a district rules interpreted for guidance—I may have the wrong ruling here, but I think my ruling is in line with the intent of this rule.)

[Lax_Stats]

shrekjr, you think I'm wrong? Okay, convince me of that and use page numbers and rule numbers while doing so please. I'm always open to learning new things or being corrected if I have misinterpreted a rule.

[shrekjr]

Here's the real question, and if you can answer this correctly you'll see why I don't think B1 should serve: What is the intent of the rule that tells us to wave off a technical foul flag if a goal is scored? (When the dust all settles on this—I've submitted this to a district rules interpreted for guidance—I may have the wrong ruling here, but I think my ruling is in line with the intent of this rule.)

If you're going where I think you're going, I still disagree. If you believe the INTENT is to protect Team A from safety issues and that is why you would enforce a personal foul but not a technical foul, then I could also say Team A was safely able to get the shot off and whether they score or not was not affected by the foul.