Big Ten Tournament/U of Wisconsin discussion

[Sonny]

I was fortunate enough to play lacrosse at a Div. III school (Franklin and Marshall) during my undergraduate years and I am grateful to Hal for the opportunity to prolong my lacrosse 'career' during graduate school, which I would not be able to do in the other leagues.

Thanks for reaffirming my point cbrockman9. Contrary to what you may believe, the UW club doesn't exist solely to provide you an opportunity to play. You could have "prolonged your lacrosse career" for any number of post-collegiate men's clubs in the Midwest. You also could have helped coach (perhaps at UW) and/or officiate if you wanted to continue to stay involved with the sport. There are any number of ways to stay involved with the sport. I'm sure the Wisconsin/Madison lacrosse community could benefit from your background, playing at a varsity program.

I would love to hear from some of the younger, undergraduate students at UW, not just a few folks who, in my opinion, are acting in a selfish manner. I can't honestly think they would turn down the chance to play for something more against major name NCAA schools, even if the MDIA is just some "poser" league. 200+ teams across the country can't be wrong!

[Kevin Boyle]

Right on Sonny!

There's another reason why the current UW Men's Lacrosse situation is bad for lacrosse.

Running the UW Men's Lacrosse Club as a traditional club lacrosse team deprives UW students the opportunity to choose to play virtual varsity lacrosse. However, if the UW Men's Lacrosse Club were a Virtual Varsity program, there would still be plenty of oportunities for players seeking a traditional club lacrosse experience.

1) It's currently impossible for students who are interested in playing Virtual Varsity lacrosse at UW to do so. They would have to start their own team. That alone isn't such a big deal. If you want to play virtau varsity lacrosse you should have to start your own team. No one has a right to play any lacrosse, let alone a right to have their school provide it for them.

However, the students who are interested in starting a virtual varsity team at UW are prohibited from doing so from a practical standpoint. Running a Virtual Varsity team does require some support from your school (field space, maybe a little bit of student activities funding, and definitely permission to carry on as the team that represents UW in the sport of lacrosse). Imagine trying to petition the school administrators for that stuff, while Hal is running his club on the other side of campus. Teh administrators would say, "Why should we let you form a club, we already have a lacrosse club. And we don't even like what they're doing. Even if we had some stuff for you, we definitely don't want another one of those clubs running around. And by the way, there can only be one 'UW Men's Lacrosse Club', and Hal is it!"

2)On the other hand, if there were a virtual varsity team tht represented UW in the sport of lacrosse, then there would still be plenty of opportunities for those interested in traditional club lacrosse. Those guys could play at Mad Cow men's club. I know first hand that they need players, and they usually run a pretty good season. Also they could play fo any of the other GLLC teams, because they don't have eligibility rules. Finally, they could start a second tea at UW. Traditional clubs on;t need the resources, or the permission, that virtual varsity programs do. Just get some grad students and mens club players together, tap a keg and go play UW-Milwaukee (no rip on UWM intended, keep up the good work guys!). That's what the Michigan B-School team does, and they also pull off an acceptable season once in a while.

In the end, if the representative team at UW is a virtual varsity team, then no-one gets deprived of the opportunity to play the kind of lacrosse that they want to.

[Kevin Boyle]

And another thing...

I disagree with the position "If the current UW players want to run a beer club, then that's their preogative. It's their team. Who is anyone else to tell them otherwise?"

That's B.S. It's not their team. It's the University of Wisconsin's team (For that matter, it's the tax payers of the State of Wisconsin's team. My Team! Which at least entitles me to gripe ).

First off, there's probably plenty of student's at UW who would rather play virtual varsity lacrosse. There's always a bunch (probably enough to fill a whole team) of players out there who are not coming out for club lacrosse because they don;t want to take a step down from their memorable HS lacrosse experiences. Most of the other Big Ten coaches should be able to back me up on that. These guys would love to come out and play. But there's no quality establishment there for them. Some of them would undoubtedly even be willing to put in the work and build a virtual varsity team out of the club that's already there. The problem is that Hal won't let them.

Second, I'm not even sure it's right to say that the current UW lacrosse playerw "want" to run a beer club. How would they know? They've never played virtual varsity lacrosse. (Obviously I'm referring to the undergrads here. Whether the grad students should have a seat at the table is an issue for another thread). I played club lacrosse in the formative days of teh USLMDIA, on a team that made the transition from traditional club to virtual varsity. There's hands down no comparison:

VIRTUAL VARSITY LACROSSE IS MORE FUN AND IS WELL WORTH THE EXTRA COMMITMENT.

I'm sure that I'm not alone here. I've spoken with dozens who've shared my experiences on this issue. Virtually nobody whose tried it both ways feels otherwise.

Finally, I've got nothing to back me up on this, but I'd be willing to bet that the UW administration would prefer a team that looked like [insert your favoite successful USLMDIA team here], than the team that they have now. That's the impresion that I've gotten from the high school administrators that I've spoken with, and I'd just be willing to bet that this applies equally to college administrators.

So, for all those reasons, I think that Hal and the UW Lacrosse club has an OBLIGATION to shape up or move aside and let someone else give it a shot.

[Kevin Boyle]

One last thing...

And the worst of it is that UW would be a great place to have a USLMDIA team. It's a huge destination for east coasters; Wisconsin is statring to generate good lacrosse players; they have a huge alumni base; there's would be a great fan base from the HS players in the Madison area; there's plenty of great GRLC competition around; Madison is a sweet town that other teams would love to road trip to; HAL IS A GREAT COACH; and there's already a good foundation here (this wouldn't even be an issue if Hal's team weren't so successful).

Please, Hal, for the sake of all that's good, see the light!
Do it for the Kids!
Do it for Wisconsin!
Do it for Lacrosse!

Get some matching uniforms & eligibility rules and we'll see you in Blaine!

[CSmizzle]

I think it's time I stopped lurking...

Kevin, I couldn't disagree with your argument more. The UW lacrosse club, like any other student organization, belongs to its student members. Although it receives some direction from the school (i.e. fill out these forms, don't break these rules, etc.), the student members chart the course and steer the ship.

I also find it hard to believe that there's dozens of undergrads who have elected to not play any lacrosse ever, rather than succumb to the lower standards of the current club. If I were a lacrosse nut at Wisconsin, then I'd take the game in whatever form I could get it. Then I'd work with other young guys who want to go virtual varsity (vv) and work to change the direction of the club from within. I wouldn't sit in my dorm room saying "If only we had vv..."

The lacrosse club at any school only has the responsibility to satisfy its own requirements. For many clubs, that entails joining MDIA and playing a high level of organized, competitive lacrosse. For others, a less intense/demanding/whatever approach satisfies the objectives of the team.

Finally, by your grass-is-greener logic, all NCAA lacrosse players should look at the USL-MDIA All-American teams and say "How could they have chosen to play virtual varsity when they could have played varsity? They can't have chosen that for themselves, because they don't know what it's like to play varsity. I've spoken to my buddies and there's just no comparison." It doesn't make sense in this context.

The lacrosse club at Wisconsin might follow a traditional model because they just like it that way.

(That being said, I'm not in any way defending what these clowns from Wisconin have been saying. Attacking another style of club management is no way to defend your own.)

[Kevin Boyle]

CSMizzle,
You might find it hard to believe that there's dozens of lacrosse players in the UW undergrad population that wish they had the opportunity to play lacrosse in a more structured environment. However, I think that coaches in the MDIA who have experience with recruiting players to club teams and dealing with attirtion will verify my assertion here. You might think it's improbable, but I've seen it first hand.

Regarding the guys sitting in their dorms instead of forming virtual varsity teams, I couldn't agree with you more. At any other school, they should get off their duff's and take matters into their own hands. But that's exactly the problem. Hal won'tt let them. (At least that's my understanding, he could be out there taking polls for all I know).

[CSmizzle]

I understand that there are strong-willed coaches. But Hal isn't an employee of Wisconsin. He has no more ability to restrcit what type of team they have than you or I do.

Players get organized, they decide to take the club in another direction. The volunteer coach can either go along with them or he can step down. Just as Wisconsin taxpayers can't "force" the Badgers to go virtual varsity, the coach can't "force" the team to stay traditional.

(Also, I don't doubt that there are a lot of kids interested in vv at Wisc. But if they can't get organized enough to push for a vv team, what does that say about their dedication once they had a team?)

Edit: Close paren

[Kevin Boyle]

Couple of other things...

"Kevin, I couldn't disagree with your argument more. The UW lacrosse club, like any other student organization, belongs to its student members. Although it receives some direction from the school (i.e. fill out these forms, don't break these rules, etc.), the student members chart the course and steer the ship."

I think you're absolutely right about this. Above, I listed some reasons why they should chart the ship towards Virtual Varsity Island. I never said that anyone can make them do anything. I think that there are good reasons why they should do it on their own.

1) They represent the University and the State that supports them; 2) they represent the sport of lacrosse; 3) it would be better for the lacrosse community as a whole if the school's resources designated for lacrosse (including potential club dues) went to a virtual varsity club instead of a traditional club, that way there could still be traditional clubs, but not vice versa; 4) Virtual Varsity lacrosse is more fun than traditional club lacrosse; 5) UW would be a great place for a virtual varsity team.

[Kevin Boyle]

I understand that there are strong-willed coaches. But Hal isn't an employee of Wisconsin. He has no more ability to restrcit what type of team they have than you or I do.

Players get organized, they decide to take the club in another direction. The volunteer coach can either go along with them or he can step down. Just as Wisconsin taxpayers can't "force" the Badgers to go virtual varsity, the coach can't "force" the team to stay traditional.

You're wrong on both counts:
As a practical matter, no one is changing anything about UW Lacrosse without the say so of their decades long coach. You gotta be kidding me.

Tax payers at Wisconsin sure as heck could change things if they wanted to. They just need to petition the regents strongly enough. That happens all the time over a whole range of issues. On a smaller scale it happens all the time at HS school boards as well. That's how a lot of HS club teams get formed, including the one I played on.

[CSmizzle]

Kevin,

Excellent job picking up on my sailing theme. To walk through the last post:

1) I'll agree that they rep the state and university in the sense that the club shouldn't be doing stupid or dangerous things while on club business. That being said, if the university wanted a lacrosse team to represent the school in a specific way, they would create that specific type of team and run it. I reiterate it's the responsibility of the lacrosse club to do what its members want, not what the school wants. Within reason.

2) Could you develop this one more? How does Wisconsin itself represent lacrosse differently than would a beer league post-collegiate team. I would imagine the game of lacrosse is represented by the Princetons, Michigans, and Salisburys or the world.

3) I'll somewhat agree that it is better for the lacrosse community if Wisconsin lax money went towards a vv team. Remember, though, that their club serves multiple captains (ahoy!). In the eyes of Wisconsin, the extra money required to have a vv team on campus might be better spent on other sports clubs, other student orgs, or other departments. Just remember that lacrosse, like all things in the university settings, are viewed from many different perspectives. To many professors, it would be better for their schools if there were no college athletics. In the eyes of many athletes, it would be better if their colleges had no professors.

4) I have a hard time accepting this as a hard rule. Everyone will have a preference and it's irresponsible for you to substitute your judgements and those of your acquaintances for everyone's opinion. Just as there are kids on traditional teams that would prefer a vv team, I bet that if you got honest answers from MDIA players, you'd find some guys who wished they had a lesser commitment to lacrosse.

5) Agreed 100%

Sadly, my job requires me to do some work. I've enjoyed the debate and hopefully we can pick it up later, even if we can't post every five minutes.

A welcome introduction to posting. Thank you all!

[John Paul]

Boyle, you working today my man?

Kevin and I disagree on some of this, but I'll absolutely back him up on his assertion that there are serious players on campus who don't come out because they don't want to play for traditional club team. In an ideal world, Csmizzle is right. (That's a sentence you'll only see on a message board.) Serious players would come out for the club and try to change things from within. Unfortunately, that's not the way things work much of the time. Without getting into specifics at Wisconsin, it's entirely possible that the leadership of a traditional club team that has been around for years and years has forged great relationships with the club sports administration. Changing the culture of a team from within is one thing. Changing it when it has long-term adult leadership is entirely different. I can back Kevin up with our own example. We started to change the program here back in the late 80's when I was playing (playing against Hal, by the way). When I took over as head coach, and the MDIA was one year old, it really started to change, and we had kids coming out of the woodwork who said exactly what Kevin asserts - "I came out for one day last year and thought the team was crap. If it's more serious now, I'm going to stick it out." Eventually, over the course of a few years, the team evolved to the point where kids include the team into their college selection process. I agree with Kevin that the same would happen at any school under the right circumstances.

When I posted on this subject a week ago, I hadn't considered Kevin's view about the responsibility to the lacrosse community. It's something to think about. He's a lot closer to it then I am. We certainly feel a real responsibility to the community here in Michigan. There is no varsity lacrosse in our state. We are trying to bridge that gap until it arrives by providing good lacrosse and a a great gameday experience for fans, camps and clinics for players and coaches, community service, etc. Our state took a step back when Michigan State lost its varsity program. Wisconsin has never had that influence for its high school and youth development. I can speak directly to how important it is to have solid college programs in the community.

Side note, I've never spoken to Hal Rosenberg about any of this. I've always been content to let Wisconsin do their thing while we do ours. Interesting that this in-depth discussion is going on about the man and his team without ever hearing from him. If even knows this is going on, he's probably sitting back getting a kick out of it.

[CSmizzle]

CSMIZZLE wrote:
I understand that there are strong-willed coaches. But Hal isn't an employee of Wisconsin. He has no more ability to restrcit what type of team they have than you or I do.


CSMIZZLE wrote:
Players get organized, they decide to take the club in another direction. The volunteer coach can either go along with them or he can step down. Just as Wisconsin taxpayers can't "force" the Badgers to go virtual varsity, the coach can't "force" the team to stay traditional.


You're wrong on both counts:
As a practical matter, no one is changing anything about UW Lacrosse without the say so of their decades long coach. You gotta be kidding me.

Tax payers at Wisconsin sure as heck could change things if they wanted to. They just need to petition the regents strongly enough. That happens all the time over a whole range of issues. On a smaller scale it happens all the time at HS school boards as well. That's how a lot of HS club teams get formed, including the one I played on.

Couldn't resist a another post post since you squeezed one in.

I'll concede that their coach has experience and is well-respected and should be given serious deference. But this issue is not about playing time, strategy, or any other coaching decision. If, after serious discussion and careful consideration, the membership of the club wanted a vv experience, nonmembers (i.e.) the coach should not be able to impede that change. The coach can argue against making a switch and highlight the benefits of staying traditional, but it's not his decision to make.

Coach Hal may have volunteered countless hours to the club over the years, but it should have been with the understanding that it was never "his" club. If he or the club sports administration cannot recognize that students are the club "owners", then shame on them.

As for the Wisconsin community, where is the taxpayer outrage? Wouldn't somebody already be lobbying about this miscarriage of laacrosse? Iif there's strong enough desire, let the interested citizens show up with their wallets and pay for the vv experience.

Also, I think there's a distinction to be made between parents lobbying for hs kids who do not cannot form a lax team on their own vs. taxpayers lobbying for college students who have the opportunity and the intelligence to make changes in an existing lax team.

[Kevin Boyle]

I'll drop the tax payer thing. That was for effect. The point is that UW players and staff SHOULD (although they don't have to) take into consideration the School and State that support them. By pointing out that taxpayers CAN change things, I didn't mean that this is likely or preferable, only that it is remotely possible.

Thanks for the support JP.

Yes I am working today. My tendency for getting wrapped up in these things is why I try not to post very often. But I was pertty hot abotu this one.

By the way, I have all the respect in the world for coaches like youself and Hal who have dedicated years of their lives to promoting our sport. I should point out that Hal also coaches a high school team in Madison. That's nuts. I just think that the way he's doing it at UW is wrong for a bunch of reasons. And I also appreciate the opportunity o hve well thought debate about it.

[wheelz33]

i think personally, if i were an undergrad at Wisconsin, id have a lot more fun playing some of the top club teams in the country, rather than the teams they play currently (no offense to them) in th GLLC. some of the older players have been saying they play just for the love of the game. thats a great thing. i do also, but more than anything i play because i love competition. playing against top teams is a lot more fun to me, regardless of the outcome, then playing a lower level team. i think wisconsin enjoys it more also, since they put FALLBALL wins on their website over teams like illinois and michigan st., since those are some of the better teams they play. judging by the their record over the last few years, wisc. isnt really being challenged in the GLLC. wisconsin, even without the grad students, is no doubt a talented team that would fare well in the MDIA. if the UNDERgrad players really would rather play in their current league, while not spending money to travel and such, then more power to them. it is neither right or wrong. but if not, wisconsin should reasses what they are doing.

[Wisclax]

As an undergrad player on the UW team I think I have something to add.

There have been a couple meetings during my time here in which the entire team voted to keep the club how it is.

Coming out of high school I had a chance to play both soccer and lacrosse at the D1 level. I made the concious choice not to make that type of commitment. There are other players on the team who had the same options open to them (whether it be in hockey, lacrosse, crew... D1 or D3). All of us are extremely pleased with how the team is run.

As for the other players who might not of had the chance to play for a varsoty squad, I know for a fact that they enjoy playing for the team and wouldn't change it (as I said earlier we have voted on this).