PNCLL 2008 All-Conference

[WOULAX21]

That is the rule as I understand it.

Any evasion of a defender, other than the goalie, by any movement of the body or stick rules out an assist. The point of an assist being that it was a great pass to find the OPEN man. Also, a commonly misconstrued aspect of the rule in terms of lacrosse is that if you take more than two steps (like in basketball) it is not an assist. Actually a goalie can make an outlet pass to an open attack on the other side of the defense and he can run 40 yards and make a shot and score and it was assisted by the goalie (as long as no other evasion was made).

This is exactly what we look for when reviewing films for our stat entering purposes (and apparently you tube ) sorry couldn't help it. I have seen the videos tho & they are pretty solid highlight reals i feel.

[TheNino57]

I have always felt that at this level of lacrosse (the PNCLL, especially), the best players are not always given the recognition they deserve since until this season, not every team played each other and thus, not everyone was able to see what everyone else had. Having high stat numbers seemed to be reflected in who made the All-Conference teams. And why shouldn't it?! The voters had to go by what was available to them, either the stat column or word of mouth by other players and coaches. If a player competes for program with relatively skilled offensive players, his likelihood of having higher numbers on the stat sheet are much better than if he plays for a developing program where half of his teammates are still trying to learn how to cradle. My point is that it is difficult to stand out on a team in a "team sport" if you don't have any support. Intangible qualities don't have any kind of set measurement. I mean, we can't even all decide on what is or what is not an assist.

For this reason, one would be hard-pressed to find a more worther All-Conference selection than CWU's #23 Kevin Norris. Though he is a very skilled attackman, there is no spot on the All-Conference team for 1st Team Leadership or 1st Team Integrity. This player is the physical embodiment of what a student athlete should be. He gets it done in the classroom and on the field. He goes out of his way to help out where ever his help is needed. Last season we had an underclassman who was struggling academically. Norris was there to help him study everyday to keep him from failing out school. No one works as hard or cares as much as Norris. Whenever Central needed a middie, Norris was there. If a long pole was hurt and we needed someone, Norris was there. CWU wasn't sure if we would have any returning goalies, guess what, Norris stepped in the cage. He does what has to be done for HIS TEAM. You can't measure how much a player brings to his team in terms of leadership or character. CWU is making the playoffs for the first time due in no small part to the hard work and dedication of Kevin Norris.

Opposing coaches: Keep an eye on #23. He isn't flashy, but he has solid fundementals. He will look for the open man before he tries to force a goal himself. If you are building a scouting report, don't look for Norris in the stat columns because he's out on the practice field wearing out the nets on Central's goals making his teammates and himself better.

Alan Colombo
CWULAX Alumni '03-'07

[WouD33]

Nice post. It is great to see a guy get some props who does all of the little things. These types of guys may not always show up in the stat sheet, but without them, the guys that get all the points would have a harder time doing it. They make many of the points possible.

[WOULAX21]

You are both completely correct. I agree that without LEADERS such as this , teams would all together cease to exist. Unfortunately (or in others eyes, fortunately) these players are awarded with accolades such as being team captain, or getting a team MVP award; 1st team, & 2nd all conference however, are accolades reserved for players for how they do perform on the field. These players are ones that may not do much more for the team, but get goals, assists, & stop goals and assists (defensively). By being

out on the practice field wearing out the nets on Central's goals making his teammates and himself better.

you can achieve these 1st & 2nd team achievements.

[HammerTime22]

However, Kevin Norris leads CWU in points so he should deserve some credit just for that.

[TheNino57]

All I am saying is that there is more to the game and a player's ability than just numbers. A weak defensive team may have the best goaltender in the conference, but if you only look at the numbers, he might look like the worst because he faces three times as many shots on goal as the net-minder for a good defensive team. The best feeding attacker in the conference may not have as high of points totals because the players who surround him struggle with finishing their shots- or catching passes for that matter. I'm simply trying to navigate the conversation away from mere numbers evaluation and on to who possesses and displays the BEST SKILL on the field.

In my playing days, I often found that the best players in the league were often overlooked because of the numbers, as I explained further in my previous post. As far as goaltending is concerned, Rafael Cuevas of Lewis & Clark was one of the best goalies in, what was then, the B Division. Does anyone remember when he got post season honors? I think he got an honorable mention in '05.

I guess what I am really trying to say in a very long-winded way is look beyond the numbers for your All-Conference selections because numbers lie.

[TheBearcatHimself]

As far as goaltending is concerned, Rafael Cuevas of Lewis & Clark was one of the best goalies in, what was then, the B Division. Does anyone remember when he got post season honors? I think he got an honorable mention in '05.

I guess what I am really trying to say in a very long-winded way is look beyond the numbers for your All-Conference selections because numbers lie.

Alan, in terms of Cuevas you are spot on. He was one of the best in the league and got NO love ever (another sad reason L&C canceled their games because he didn't get to finish his senior year). Since our MCLA site carries only a small amount of stats (and by no means am I suggesting it should carry more) we get caught up in the points aspect of the game. Ground balls, faceoffs, that "extra" pass that sets up the assist, the critical check that stops a goal, these are all areas of the game that can't be statistically tallied in an efficient matter, or in some cases can't be quantified at all.

(You think there's controversy over assists??? Imagine if GB's was a stat on mcla.us, there would be teams putting up poles claiming 900 GB's.)

If I can name drop another player out there that ALWAYS seems to come up with the crucial GB or perfect check it would be Landon Spady the LSM down at SOU. That kid seems little and with that pole in his hands he seems even littler, but he is a terror between the boxes riding and clearing and has solid defense to boot. There are lots of guys in this league who just can't get that love because we don't get to see every game. But you are 100% right, every team has a lunch-pail-carrying table-setter that gets no recognition. In the end chicks dig the long ball...or goals in this case.

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

I was always under the impression that an assist was recorded for a player any time the coach leaned over to the scoring table and said "22 from 18."

Isn't that how the rule book reads?

[Kyle Berggren]

I'm going to pick on Kevin Norris here for a second, just to make a point, not because I have anything against him. Actually, our scouting report (and quarter by quarter instructions against him) say, "STOP leaving him open... Always open on the crease, works hard, fights for gbs, do NOT allow feeds, very quick accurate stick, excellent off ball." He's a very good player, his work ethic on the field is impressive, & I'm sure any team would be happy to have him. He's a very well rounded player. That being said, our system for making All-Conference doesn't exactly work toward getting him on the 1st or 2nd team....

Coaches vote for their 1st team selections (that's 3 attackmen, none from their own team), then rank their deserving players as they see fit. If I'm thinking of 2007, I'm just going to start naming a few attackmen off the top of my head....

Hall
Ault
Cameron
Whitehead
Petit
Tkachuk
Hart
Hayden
Young
Lee

That's 10 attackmen, all could make cases for first team ability... We only have 2 teams... Now we need someone else to pick this person multiple times, to get them on the list. It's a tough group to crack & it's nice to say on this board how wonderful & deserving you think a player may be, but don't be surprised if he's not on the first team. I'd be surprised if he didn't get HM, but I'd be pretty shocked to see him on the first team. Of 10 coaches voting, multiple would have to think he's of the top 3 attackmen in the league & that's all it comes down to.

[chat sauvage]

So I am confused.... According to a number of posts, it appears that the selection of All-Conference teams is largely based on points. Interesting. Given that a number of teams played less games due to forfeiture, lack of out of conference games, or the scheduling, deliberate or otherwise, of teams with a less than stellar record of success would lead me to conclude that any and all points (including the nefarious assists) not garnered in league play should not be included in a tally used to determine placement on All-Conference teams. My rationale of course is that everyone should have a relative even field from which to be drawn. Do note I haven't even mentioned points achieved in blow-out games... Points obtained from common opponents enable one to ascertain how one performs against the same players. By way of example, how well did player X from CWU perform against defenders A,B,C, from 3 separate schools. Compared to player Y from WU against the same defenders.... Awarding recognition purely based on an accummulation of points without factoring in the difficulty of having obtained those points doesn't seem quite fair.

By the way, what about those defensive middies (not LSMs)? Are they ineligible due to lack of points?

I am also curious as to who reviews the coaches input and tabulates the results. Is this done by committee? What happens in the event of a tie et cetera

[Kyle Berggren]

The posts you're talking about are largely from players or fans, not voters. Your coach votes, but in all honestly, what you're proposing is ridiculous... You're asking for laxpower type system to rank players effectiveness against common defenders.... What? What if I used a player differently than another team would... ? I'm sure I do, I'm weird. This is the first year each team should have seen every team play in D2. Sure some players were injured & missed a few games, but we all have a pretty good idea of who the best players in the league are & have been. Comments have been made about players on "bad teams" not making it, well Cody Hart won offensive player of the year (and was first team) in D2 last year... His team was 3-5, they didn't even make the playoffs.

Everyone that has seen all the teams should sit down for an hour & start to make their own 1st team selections. I'll bet they're more similar than you expect. Awards for work ethic & heart aren't really found on a league level, your own teams should recognize that. PNCLL All-Conference selections should be about putting the best team out there.... There are standouts at each position this year, & while there may be competition for players to get into the last spot at a position on the first team, I think the majority of players are pretty obvious. I don't really care how many points someone averages, after a certain point, 5 looks like 7 & 4 looks like 6... They can both get the job done, both obviously put up numbers, but one player can only go right, the other makes his team better... Another had a great year, but was in a losing situation on a bad team... It's still a subjective judgment call.

For instance, my junior year I was a top 10 scorer in D1, leading scorer for me team, yet wasn't the Offensive MVP for my team.... Weird, but I scored the most points & lead my team in assists... I shouldn't have been our Offensive MVP, I shouldn't have been a first team attackmen (& I wasn't). I fit a role very well on my team & I got the job done. Many of the players that are being mentioned in this thread fit that bill. They aren't the most talented, but they make great decisions on & off ball. They're a coach's dream, but they're competing with players that are the focal point of offenses, not role players benefiting from the offensive scheme (based largely on another player). These players typically end up on the second team or honorable mention & I'm fine with it, I was one of these players.

I always look at it as what happens if I put our PNCLL All-Conference team against someone else. Would I want to change players out? When I say no, my voting is done. I love fantastic role players & leadership, every team needs of them. But the first team players need to be automatic starters at each school in the PNCLL (that's the goal).

[Dr. Jason Stockton]

So I am confused.... According to a number of posts, it appears that the selection of All-Conference teams is largely based on points. Interesting. Given that a number of teams played less games due to forfeiture, lack of out of conference games, or the scheduling, deliberate or otherwise, of teams with a less than stellar record of success would lead me to conclude that any and all points (including the nefarious assists) not garnered in league play should not be included in a tally used to determine placement on All-Conference teams. My rationale of course is that everyone should have a relative even field from which to be drawn. Do note I haven't even mentioned points achieved in blow-out games... Points obtained from common opponents enable one to ascertain how one performs against the same players. By way of example, how well did player X from CWU perform against defenders A,B,C, from 3 separate schools. Compared to player Y from WU against the same defenders.... Awarding recognition purely based on an accummulation of points without factoring in the difficulty of having obtained those points doesn't seem quite fair.

By the way, what about those defensive middies (not LSMs)? Are they ineligible due to lack of points?

I am also curious as to who reviews the coaches input and tabulates the results. Is this done by committee? What happens in the event of a tie et cetera

You make some good points here. . .and so hopefully I can clarify.

First, I certainly hope coaches don't just go to the PNCLL.com stat page to pick their top players. Sure, numbers are important - but you're absolutely correct. . .numbers against Lewis and Clark are not as indicative of all-star status as numbers against UPS or WOU. Some players rack up points against bad teams, yet disappear against the best teams. When looking at the stats, this should certainly be taken into consideration. The coaches vote, and for the most part, they do a very nice job. Coaches are not allowed to vote for their own players, so the lists become very objective.

Marilyn Hoskins and I do all of the tabulating of the results. In the event of a tie, the entire executive board votes to break ties. If the tie involves a player on the team of a board member, that board member does not cast a vote to break the tie.

Each coach sends me two lists. First, he sends me a list of the players from his own team, in number order, that he feels are most deserving of all-star status. Then he sends in an all-star roster (3A, 3M, 3D, 1G, FOGO, LSM) that includes none of his own players.

Usually. . .there are very few ties. And yes, there are times that players are not recognized because they are "roll-players" on their teams. Maybe they are an excellent D-middie, dominate GBs, specialize in wing play on the face off, man-down,etc. . .This is where a coach comes in - if the player is that valuable, his name should appear on the coach's list. EXAMPLE: If a player is a top nominee by his coach, yet doesn't receive many votes. .. a spot may be reserved for him on the honorable mention list.

It is not an exact science, but it is very fair and a LOT of time and attention is paid towards putting the best list possible forward. I think the coaches and EB do an excellent, thorough job with the All Star list.

[nhoskins]

The coaches vote, and for the most part, they do a very nice job. Coaches are not allowed to vote for their own players, so the lists become very objective.

Marilyn Hoskins and I do all of the tabulating of the results. In the event of a tie, the entire executive board votes to break ties. If the tie involves a player on the team of a board member, that board member does not cast a vote to break the tie.

I think Jason and Marilyn are definitely objective; I didn't win anything when I played (thanks Mom)

[Blynk22]

Just my two cents on All-Conference...

Defense
For the second straight year, Dan Snell was hands down the best pole in the league. His size and speed combined with his relentless motor set the tone for SOUs entire defense. He seems to be everywhere on the field, winning face-offs, scoring goals, and controlling the clearing game. Snell changes games in a way that no one else in the league does with his competitiveness, a very classy opponent.
CWUs Kellen Gallacher is another top pole that comes to mind. He is a great leader on the field for CWUs defense, plays great body D and is a great ball handler. He carried CWUs transition game against us, and whenever we were close to drawing even with them he always seemed to make a big play.
WWUs Adam Extine should also get first-team consideration. His defense comes straight out of the textbook, under control but aggressive, very technically sound player.

Midfield
SOUs Alex White single-handedly picked us apart at the midfield with some great dodging and a quick shot, and is one of the top 3 ball handling middies, IMO.
UPSs Pete Dills is almost a replica of White. His lightning quick release after a split dodge is lethal. He sees the field really well, always dodging into a great shooting lane.
Whitman's David Ogle is the patient quarterback of a potent Whitman offense,and has a great LAX IQ. His style reminds me of the way Cody Hart used to patiently pick apart entire defenses.
Western Oregon's FOS Ian Bohnice dominates the X, giving the WOU offense TONS of possession time and contributing some of his own firepower.

Attack
WWUs Lucas Simons might be a pure crease attackman, but hes sure mastered the art well. that guy was automatic everytime he would get a ball in front of the cage even after we started giving him special attention. He killed us.
CofIs Colin Burke is the lifeline of that team. He keeps the yotes playing hard until the final whistle, and is very creative with the ball in his stick.
UPS's Reid Petit is a tremendous all-around player who controls the pace of the game. He doesn't really seem to have any weakness.

[Tyler Baumann]

That's why film is sweet for stats, unless you are making silly you tube videos..........

you are totally right. We never use our game film for help with stats or making our team better. In fact we don't even let our guys see the actual game footage, just our sweet clips on youtube!!!!! As soon as the new video is edited we make Chris delete the actual film......

I told Mark I would start putting up you tube videos to help the younger guys make the transition to the next level, but Mark took my video and burned it right in front of me, like John Denver's Country Music Award!