PNCLL D2 2009

[AndyP]

I think D1 should be split into 2 divisions. It was evident that part of SFU's success this year was due in part to being able to schedule enough OOC games to showcase their talent. If PSU joins D1, it will be very difficult to engage in a competitive schedule year after year.

It's tough to schedule numerous competitive OOC trips when every other weekend is taken up by In-conference games, not to mention the budget allocation that requires.

This would benefit to the entire league, as many more teams will be able to make a case for nationals. In D1, I could see Montana, OSU, Huskies and maybe others sneaking into the Top 25 if they had more free weekends to play ranked OOC teams.

[nhoskins]

I think D1 should be split into 2 divisions. It was evident that part of SFU's success this year was due in part to being able to schedule enough OOC games to showcase their talent. If PSU joins D1, it will be very difficult to engage in a competitive schedule year after year.

It's tough to schedule numerous competitive OOC trips when every other weekend is taken up by In-conference games, not to mention the budget allocation that requires.

This would benefit to the entire league, as many more teams will be able to make a case for nationals. In D1, I could see Montana, OSU, Huskies and maybe others sneaking into the Top 25 if they had more free weekends to play ranked OOC teams.

PSU is, by the MCLA's definition, a D2 school and as such have every right to play D2. It will benefit the league to have a new potentially strong D2 program to add to the already competitive mix, it sorts out the divisional issues, and it allows for D1 to split 5 and 5 as well.

The only issue with the split would be that teams would have only 4 divisional games. This is great for teams like SFU and UO who attract top competition to play them at home for OOC and invite them to OOC tournaments.

However, what about a WSU? They struggled last year, and how are they going to be able to talk teams into travelling to Pullman for what may not be a competitive game? You're looking at a team like WSU having only 4 divisional games, and thus 4 games total, all year. Unless they travel somewhere else with the understanding that the team they visit OOC would travel back to play them. A split would be great for the top PNCLL teams, but would kill the weaker teams. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I don't see many teams willing to play a 4 game schedule. Or possibly a six game, if they can get in an OOC trip.

[dgr01002]

[quote="TheBearcatHimself"]Point 1 - OOC Games: Dead on it made us VERY WEAK looking that only 4 schools played OOC games. Think about this: only ONE team at the final four played OOC games!!!! That is unreal.quote]

Hey all, sorry to have an SELC guy poke his head in, but it's the perfect forum. I'm the head coach at Emory in Atlanta. Just to plant this seed for D2 teams, Atlanta in 2009 will have six, possibly seven SELC Central D2 teams within a 2.5 hour radius. Atlanta, the city, has three SELC D2 teams alone. It's a great city to try and pick up OOC games due to weather and so many teams within proximity to satisfy requirements without having to travel long hours. If teams wanted to come here, I can get whatever caliber D2 teams you want to play to make the trek for a weekend of games. (SCAD, Elon, UNC-Charlotte, Tenn Wesleyan, Kenesaw State, GA State, etc.,. All very close. All willing to pick up games.

Just wanted to throw it your way.

-Coach Reed

[AndyP]

I think D1 should be split into 2 divisions. It was evident that part of SFU's success this year was due in part to being able to schedule enough OOC games to showcase their talent. If PSU joins D1, it will be very difficult to engage in a competitive schedule year after year.

The only issue with the split would be that teams would have only 4 divisional games. This is great for teams like SFU and UO who attract top competition to play them at home for OOC and invite them to OOC tournaments.

True for UO, not SFU. SFU spends a lot of budget $$$ and travel to play their OOC games. When was the last time an OOC team went north of the border to play SFU? Probably UC Davis 3 or 4 years ago, I can't even think of another besides that.

WSU would spend only as much as SFU to play an equal number of OOC games, maybe less, as it would be domestic travel.

I do agree that SFU would get invited to more tournaments though.

Also, if there were two divisions, there would be nothing prohibiting teams from playing Inter-divisional games. Just like D1 teams used to regularily play D2 teams, the same could be arrange for 2 divisions in one league.

[nhoskins]

True for UO, not SFU. SFU spends a lot of budget $$$ and travel to play their OOC games. When was the last time an OOC team went north of the border to play SFU? Probably UC Davis 3 or 4 years ago, I can't even think of another besides that.

WSU would spend only as much as SFU to play an equal number of OOC games, maybe less, as it would be domestic travel.

I do agree that SFU would get invited to more tournaments though.

Also, if there were two divisions, there would be nothing prohibiting teams from playing Inter-divisional games. Just like D1 teams used to regularily play D2 teams, the same could be arrange for 2 divisions in one league.

No offense to UW, but I think a lot of the OOC teams that travel up to play in their indoor tournament are more there for the chance to beat ranked SFU, than the unranked Huskies. SFU is a disadvantage because many teams don't want to deal with the hassle of the border, or worrying about passports, or worrying about their players aged 19+ being able to purchase and consume alcohol.

As for WSU, I enjoyed coaching against them and it was a great game. However, a lot of other teams in this league would probably rather not have to play the Cougars in favor of a more 'competitive' game. In fact, preseason, the Ducks didn't want to play anyone in the PNCLL at all. They were required to do so however, and without that requirement, I doubt they would have played anyone other than SFU and maybe traditional rival OSU.

You can't tell me teams are going to allocate funds to travel to Pullman for a game with the Cougs, when they don't have to. Furthermore, why invite the Cougs when you could invite a more 'competitive' team?

As an aside, I don't mean to pick on the Cougs, and I suppose I could substitute Boise State for Washington State in the above statements, as we were a stellar 1-7 this season.

[TheBearcatHimself]

PSU is, by the MCLA's definition, a D2 school and as such have every right to play D2. It will benefit the league to have a new potentially strong D2 program to add to the already competitive mix, it sorts out the divisional issues, and it allows for D1 to split 5 and 5 as well.

Curious about your math here, if you send PSU to D2 as you propose, there are 9 teams in D1 making a 5 and 5 split extremely difficult...

Also, if you are worried about only 4 divisional games, make your four intra-divisional opponents a home-and-home series. Increase the rivalries, guarantee 4 home games, and ensure 8 conference games.

Also, the MCLA D1A football guideline is just that, a guideline. This is very much like the 10th amendment to the constitution, the leagues are free to enforce the rule as they see fit and proper. If the majority of the league feels that PSU belongs in D1, I believe that is where they would be sent.

[woulax23]

another issue that I think we could discuss is the DII play-off format. With only 9 teams in the division right now I think that we should switch to a four team format. It is a little unbelievable to me personally that 2/3 of the teams make it to play-offs. This extra weekend would also allow for some ooc competition. any other opinions?

[nhoskins]

another issue that I think we could discuss is the DII play-off format. With only 9 teams in the division right now I think that we should switch to a four team format. It is a little unbelievable to me personally that 2/3 of the teams make it to play-offs. This extra weekend would also allow for some ooc competition. any other opinions?

I agree. I voted against a 6 team playoff in D1, and support D2 moving to a 4 team format. It's ridiculous for 66% of the teams to "make" playoffs. I believe Dan was a vocal proponent of moving to 6 teams, as the Huskies seemed to be the 5th team looking in the past few years. And then ths year, they make it as the 4th team. Go figure.

I don't think there's any sport where >50% of the teams make playoffs.. except maybe the NHL, but who watches that?

[nhoskins]

PSU is, by the MCLA's definition, a D2 school and as such have every right to play D2. It will benefit the league to have a new potentially strong D2 program to add to the already competitive mix, it sorts out the divisional issues, and it allows for D1 to split 5 and 5 as well.

Curious about your math here, if you send PSU to D2 as you propose, there are 9 teams in D1 making a 5 and 5 split extremely difficult...

Also, if you are worried about only 4 divisional games, make your four intra-divisional opponents a home-and-home series. Increase the rivalries, guarantee 4 home games, and ensure 8 conference games.

Also, the MCLA D1A football guideline is just that, a guideline. This is very much like the 10th amendment to the constitution, the leagues are free to enforce the rule as they see fit and proper. If the majority of the league feels that PSU belongs in D1, I believe that is where they would be sent.

5..6...7...8...9... Yeah, 9 teams in D1. So I'm not a math major I don't support a split in D1, as it wouldn't work numerically. And the idea of splitting is to reduce conference games for more OOC, so playing home-and-home defeats the purpose. Maybe we can move to doubleheaders like baseball!

I guess this whole discussion depends on what happens with PSU. Should be a fun meeting

[AndyP]

You don't support splitting the division because it's an odd number? What if there were 21 teams in the league? Each team would have to play 20 intra divisional games?

I know we're getting into semantics here, but where do you draw the line? When does one say enough is enough and realize too many In-conference games are hurting opportunities to showcase the PNCLL to the rest of the MCLA? The PNCLL is often brushed aside enough as it is.

I think we all realize the RMLC, WCLL both have huge advantages because they don't have to fill their schedules with league games. Not only does this save money, but it also frees up lots of time on their calender to travel and host as many OOC games as they can get. I don't think it's any coincidence both conferences are continually sending numerous teams to nationals.

[Chris Larson]

Also, the MCLA D1A football guideline is just that, a guideline. This is very much like the 10th amendment to the constitution, the leagues are free to enforce the rule as they see fit and proper. If the majority of the league feels that PSU belongs in D1, I believe that is where they would be sent.

It's not a guideline. It is how the MCLA will define the team. The PNCLL may use additional, more restrictive guidelines should they choose.

[nhoskins]

You don't support splitting the division because it's an odd number? What if there were 21 teams in the league? Each team would have to play 20 intra divisional games?

I know we're getting into semantics here, but where do you draw the line? When does one say enough is enough and realize too many In-conference games are hurting opportunities to showcase the PNCLL to the rest of the MCLA? The PNCLL is often brushed aside enough as it is.

I think we all realize the RMLC, WCLL both have huge advantages because they don't have to fill their schedules with league games. Not only does this save money, but it also frees up lots of time on their calender to travel and host as many OOC games as they can get. I don't think it's any coincidence both conferences are continually sending numerous teams to nationals.

You would argue semantics. I think 9 works... It's 4 travel partner weekends. I think anything beyond that and it gets messy and a divisional split would be warranted. And odd numbers does not preclude a divisonal split, I believe the SELC has divisions with different numbers of teams.

[AndyP]

And odd numbers does not preclude a divisonal split,

That's why I was saying!

[Dan Wishengrad]

No offense to UW, but I think a lot of the OOC teams that travel up to play in their indoor tournament are more there for the chance to beat ranked SFU, than the unranked Huskies.

While I agree that SFU is a "draw", teams have committed to come to Seattle before we ever even invited the Clansmen to participate, Nate. The best HIT to date didn't even include SFU -- it was when we had MInnesota-Duluth, Cal-Poly and Utah. A big part of the draw is coming to Seattle itself, and even more the chance to play inside the best indoor facility in the MCLA. The HIT began in 2004, and SFU hasn't been an elite national team since 2001, until this year that is. LOL the irony here is that there have been other PNCLL teams who have asked to come to Seattle to play in Dempsey for our event and I've invited SFU instead because the Clan has so much trouble getting teams to travel to Canada for OOC games, and I try to help my neighbors to the North. Now you are saying that it is SFU itself that "drives" the HIT. Hmmmmm, maybe I should not invite your alma mater in the future and we'll see if teams are still willing to come anyway?

As far as your other post about my agenda to expand the D1 playoffs, you can believe what you want to. The truth is my lobbying for a 6-team playoff had virtually nothing to do with my own team. I can and do "wear more than one hat", and sometime try to consider what is good for the entire membership as a PNCLL executive and not just my own team. We have six of ten D2 teams going to playoffs, but only four of nine D1 teams. That doesn't seem fair to me, but I was out-voted. Fine. It won't be the last time I advocate a position which doesn't carry the day.

Where the Huskies are concerned, our ultimate goal (like most teams) is to win the PNCLL -- not just go to playoffs and get eliminated in the first round. I will advocate for an expanded D1 playoffs again this year, and if you want to believe that it is only to sneak U-Dub into the final slot you are free to do so.

[Timbalaned]

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I don't see many teams willing to play a 4 game schedule. Or possibly a six game, if they can get in an OOC trip.

Ask Colorado how that worked out...