GLLL

[KevinBice]

Earlier this week I received an email from Hal Rosenberg, the coach for UW Madison's GLLL team, who wanted to clarify a few things about the GLLL. I don't remember the post I made that he refers to in his message, but apparently I made some misinformed comments a while back. His message is verbatim and will hopefully answer a few questions about why UW doesn't want to join the UMLL.

"I came across a post you made last year on the UMLL / MCLA site
about why Wisconsin plays in GLLL . You had your info way off .
I'd appreciate if you set the record straight about Wisconsin
Lacrosse team . First , we have almost no grad students on the
team - last year we had 2 who played 1 weekend in the fall -none in
the spring . In years past we have had 1 or at most 2 players in
grad school - sometimes none . Also , in case it ever comes up , in
2005 when we beat Michigan State to win the Big Ten Tournament -we
had zero grad students - it was 100% under grads .
Because of our funding ,our charter says all UW students have to
be allowed to play . This year there are no current players in grad
school as of now .

Which brings us back to the actual reasons why the UW has not
joined MCLA Lax . The basics are it's too expensive and because of
where we are located , it would require too much travel = too much
time + expense . We get very little UW funding . We try to keep
our costs minimal [ $200 /year] in order to make the sport available
to as many players as possible regardless of economic status . Our
bigger travel events - New Orleans and Italy were optional and
required a great deal of fund raising to keep costs minimal . Our
coaches are not paid [ including me ] . It's worked well , we have
2 teams and we have over 50 players on the active roster .

On travel and time - we generally have only 2-3 overnites/ year
[fall + spring ] . Most of our games are close enough so we can
drive back the same day . Our players want to be away from campus
as little as possible . We know to play in UMLL we'd have to
travel many weekends [ Marquette had to go to Mn 8 times 2 seasons
ago] This spring , our full road schedule was going to NIU 2 times
and Platteville 2 times - one night in a hotel .. In addition to
great travel + hotel expense - the time required would be a
definite drain on player's time for school work and other activities .

A little history too - I approached the MCLA and UMLL about us
beginning an eastern [Wisconsin]+] division , but was given a firm
no . That is why I started the GLLL . If we could control costs and
travel distances [ Chicago is about as far as we ever go ] , our
team was and is open to the idea . It makes a lot more sense to play
teams closer to us .

In the mean time , the GLLL is up to 21 teams last spring and
probably will go over 24 this year . The teams are getting better
every year . You should know MCLA teams have played GLLL teams and
have them count in there out of conference record . We like playing
UMLL teams which is why we've invited them every fall to come here
and have road tripped almost every year to Minnesota [ Last year
Mankato , year before Hot Dish + St Cloud .

I hope in the future, the GLLL teams and MCLA teams can continue
to expand inter league play . We will continue to discuss the
other league options at UW and see if there is enough interest and
financing to look more .

Also on the Mark King problem .... He was told NO 2 times
by UW club sports and then ignored them and launched a full website
[cribbed from Michigan] claiming to be the coach of the Wisconsin
LAX team , without any OK or knowledge of the UW or our team . He
also promoted his summer camp on the same site [ self dealing ] with
his main credential being UW head LAX coach . That's the brief
summary of the problem . He was told by UW legal department
[ nothing to do with me ] to cease and desist and never use UW name
without authorization .
That did not help our players or alumni attitude about the MCLA .

I know this is long - but I wanted you to have the real info . It's
amazing to me how many people have the wrong idea about UW and
GLLL and me personally. You could really do some real good by
letting others know what is really going on here if the question
comes up again."

-Hal Rosenberg

[msum26]

Interesting...

it does clear up a lot of misnomers about the UW team.

i personally had heard tons of reasonings behind them not joining UMLL or MCLA most of which by reading that we untrue.

nice to clear the air.

[LaxTV_Admin]

You should know MCLA teams have played GLLL teams and
have them count in there out of conference record . We like playing
UMLL teams which is why we've invited them every fall to come here
and have road tripped almost every year to Minnesota [ Last year
Mankato , year before Hot Dish + St Cloud .

-Hal Rosenberg

Rob, maybe you can clarify, but I am pretty sure games against GLLL teams does NOT count in Out of Conference games.

To clarify, I am not sure where Hal got the stat about Marquette traveling to Minnesota 8 times, that is just not even feasible. That would have meant we traveled every weekend from March 1 to the end of April, which we never have. We typically do about 6 away weekends, 2 out of conference and 4 conference.

As far as the rest of it goes, there is a long thread on this, but there is room for both the GLLL and the MCLA and they are for different individuals. Either way, I hope that we are not re-opening that debate which wasted about 30 minutes of my life reading all the posts in there.

[DanGenck]

All of the other UMLL teams deal with travel and expenses. Other Big Ten Schools deal with it too (Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Iowa and Illinois).

But hey, if that's what they want to do, that's fine. Unfortunate... but fine.

[Pinball]

If they want do not want to play the best teams in the region that is up to them. Us begging them to be in "our" league is like paying someone to be your friend.

[Dylan Dickey]

Toward the end of Hal's email to Kevin he mentioned Mark King. Probably way off topic, but never heard that name...

[Pinball]

i had the same question. So i did the cool thing and googled him.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Mark+King%22++lacrosse&btnG=Search

verona lax coach, president of Wisconsin Lacrosse-US Lax Chapter????

[LaxTV_Admin]

He used to coach Verona, where Kevin played, I believe, but is now an assistant coach with the University of Denver. [Kevin, if I am wrong I apologize.]

He was/is a member of the Wisconsin Chapter, but to the best of my knowledge is no longer the president. I am not sure what, if any capacity, he has with the Wisconsin Chapter anymore.

He is also a Marquette alum

[scooter]

As some one who is sorta familiar with the GLLL ( I attend a GLLL school, met/practiced with the NIU team a few times, but have no official connection with them), I must say I find some of this post a bit of bull. A majority of the GLLL is still quite bush-league at best. They may be growing, but I wonder about the quality of schools who are joining their league.

I have never been a fan of the GLLL, and while the post does seem to clear up misconceptions about Wisconsin, I still find it to be a bunch of excuses to not step up and play at a higher level

[DwinsChamps]

Panchito,

Your assessment of Mark King is on the money. He now is an assistant with DU, and has no affiliation with the WI lax federation.

In regards to the UW men's club situation, I'm happy that Hal sent out the letter. There was too much speculation on this board regarding his team's situation.

---

Scooter,

Considering in your post you say that you're "only sorta familiar" with the GLLL, what makes you qualified to assess its quality? Furthermore, how do you criticize Hal's goal to increase lacrosse participation by keeping player costs down?

I'm only sort of familiar with NIU lax, so I'll withhold my judgment of it until I have more information.

[scooter]

My qualifications are that I played in the GRLC for the majority of my lax career, and have seen on more than one occasion the quality of this league versus the quality of the MCLA. I traveled on multiple weekends to see teams such as Wheaton, Augustana, Illinois, Lindenwood, as well as the GRLC conference playoffs, and have stayed in Dekalb to watch NIU take on the opponents of the GLLL as well as the GLLL championship.

I love the game of lacrosse, and take every conceivable opportunity to watch good games, even if that means dumping most of my TA salary into travel expenses for games. I can just say that from what I have seen, the MCLA is far better than the GLLL, and I think you would be hard pressed to find someone with a more informed opinion than I.

The issue I take most with is him only having dues at $200. Granted, each team is run differently, but I think that having 2 squads with 50+ total participants is entirely unneccessary for a collegiate program. He also took his team to Italy, which seems like an entirely unnecessary expense, and which the funds could have been allocated.

Dating back to my undergrad days, I have always thought the reason UW-Madison avoided quality competition is because they like to be dominant in what is otherwise a mediocre league. With them losing the championship this year, I feel that the competition level has increased, but is nowhere near MCLA level.

Who knows, maybe with the "new" leadership in the GLLL, more specifically Hal and UW-Madison, maybe they have turned the corner and become the flagship team of a great league that could become a lacrosse powerhouse in the greater Chicago/ Milwaukee area. But if the past is any indication, much has to be done before they deserve to be put on par with the MCLA

[John Paul]

It looks like Mark King is no longer with Denver. They had an assistant coach position posted this summer, and just announced they hired Matt Brown for it. King is no longer listed on their staff directory.

On Wisconsin (pun intended)...if they are doing what they want to do, fine. I'm sure there are players on campus that would like a more serious lacrosse experience and don't participate because it's not offered, just as I know there are players on some MCLA campuses who would like a less serious experience and don't participate because of the commitment and/or expense. Bottom line, the program at Wisconsin is what is offered there, and players who choose to attend probably know that going in - just as players who choose to attend our schools know they won't be getting scholarship support or other varsity benefits.

If Wisconsin ever has a change of heart, they know where to find us - the same as if any MCLA schools add varsity programs they know where to find the number for the NCAA.

[laxfan25]

It was interesting to see the letter from Hal, and nice to have his input to attempt to dispel a lot of the rumors that have floated around. As JP stated, if that is the level of program that they wish to have, more power to them.
As for Scooter's comment -

I can just say that from what I have seen, the MCLA is far better than the GLLL, and I think you would be hard pressed to find someone with a more informed opinion than I.

That is probably true, and completely immaterial. the same could be said of D3 being better overall than the MCLA and D1 being better than D3. As long as the players are having fun playing lacrosse and the games are competitive, what more can you ask? If they can do it by charging players $200 rather than $2,000, that is also huge. If travel is limited to Chicago, that can be a plus in some eyes as well.
It reminds me of when we started the Grand Rapids Lacrosse Club back in 1981. We would go to the Midwest City League meeting for scheduling, but didn't want to become a full-fledged member since it would have involved travel to Cleveland, Columbus, the Twin Cities and points in between, and we would never have been able to get enough guys that would want to do that. So instead we would play the Detroit, Toledo and some Chicago teams, and then supplement that with games with Hope, Calvin, Albion, U of M club, MSU club, ND club, etc. We had a lot of fun, the games would be competitive, travel was minimal and we charged $50 dues, which was like pulling teeth sometimes. A buddy and I ran the team for 15 years, and after we gave up the reins it kinda faded away. Things evolve, and many of our college opponents have raised the bar and gone to the MCLA, which is great for them. There are also still a lot of programs that want to keep it at a lower level, and that's fine also. As long as they're all lovin' lax and having a good time - it's all good. No need to denigrate their level of play, because some people may make (and do make) comments about the MCLA just being "club ball".

[bste_lax]

If Wisconsin ever has a change of heart, they know where to find us - the same as if any MCLA schools add varsity programs they know where to find the number for the NCAA.

This is basically true. Wisconsin has been doing the same thing for years (same deal when I was at Iowa since 2000) and that is the type of program they want to run. As long as Hal is involved in the team, I don't think we will see them in the MCLA. Not saying this is a good or bad thing, "that's just how they roll".

[Hunt]

As tempting as it is to bash the GLLL or Wisconsin for not wanting better competition, you have to give them credit for doing what they're doing. Hal said it best, they have maybe 24 teams playing in their league with little travel and very low dues. Maybe the competition level isn't as high as other places, but for these guys - many of whom have never picked up a stick before or may not know all the nuances in rules and what not - this is a perfect league. Remember where it is as well - Wisconsin. Where lacrosse isn't a high school sanctioned sport, and for the high schools that do have it it is only a club sport and most teams have been around for less than 5 years.

Wisconsin has a lot of growing to do regarding the sport of lacrosse, and Hal's league is not hurting that at all. Young players in Wisconsin will graduate, go to a UW school (Madison, Whitewater, Platteville, Milwaukee, Stout, Oshkosh, etc.) and play what our standards see as a relaxed sort of club ball. And if they really enjoy it, they'll head back to the high school level and continue the growth there. Remember a few months back in this forum when the topic was started about how many UMLL guys contribute to Minnesota HS lacrosse and it's growth? Why can't the same thing happen in Wisconsin? I know for a fact that guys from Marquette are doing this, and I wouldn't be surprised if guys from UWEC and UWSP are doing it as well, and encouraging their high school players to go and play at the next level, if not varsity somewhere then at least with the MCLA. GLLL guys can do that too.

At Marquette this past spring we hosted two high school teams to play a game on our fields. After the game, a few of the guys from one team came up to me because they knew I played college ball for Marquette. They were going to places like UWEC, UW-Oshkosh, and UW-Platteville, and they were all excited about it and were asking lots of questions about what it was like to play lacrosse in college. It didn't matter if they were MCLA or GLLL, they were excited and that's exactly what needs to happen for lacrosse to grow in a state where it's not very big yet.

Don't get me wrong here, I definitely think the MCLA is better for me (and most of us) - I'm willing to pay high dues and travel a lot, but that's because I want to know that when I graduate from this league, a league with little glory or national acclaim outside of our own feelings, that I had the chance to play against the best competition that I could. That I played against great teams and great schools and saw great places and met great players and did all that I could to make my lacrosse experience - personally - as rewarding as possible. The GLLL couldn't do that for me because of these things, and the same is true for most of us on this forum. But for some of these Wisconsin guys, the GLLL can more than fulfill everything they want out of a lacrosse experience. And the GLLL provides that for them. Kudos to Hal for setting it up.

And as a point of reference, when Marquette was suspended a few years ago we put together a team, called the TBones, to play in the GLLL. We still appreciate that they allowed us to play (no affiliation to Marquette) and keep up the sport that we loved. And it was a good experience that spring, but at the end of the day our team agreed that we wanted a little bit higher level of play and respect nationally. Again, purely our personal feelings from experiencing both leagues.

I think a lot of us want/think Wisconsin should join many of the other Big Ten schools and have a team in the MCLA. It's a little selfish on our part, because we want good competition and we know that if they made that leap they might be able to provide it. We also want good teams that will help our league, the UMLL and the MCLA, get better, and if Wisconsin can beat teams like MSU, even once, then you can't argue they don't have potential right away. We also want that good competition to be close geographically, and Madison is a great central point for Midwest teams. But at the end of the day, we are doing what we think is right, and they are too. No matter how you feel about the GLLL, they're growing the game of lacrosse and it's hard not to respect that.