WSU in the league?

[nlyon02]

just out of curiosity, if we meet all the rules what do you you as admins, players, and coaches feel about WSU possibly being back in the league next year?

[Ryan Hanavan]

I can remember some great Montana/WSU games back when we were trying to get Montana back in the league. I would love to see the Cougs get things back up and running and having been on the sidelines against you guys three times between the fall and spring I know you have the talent.

[Sonny]

Just curious....

What has Washington State done in the last season or two to warrant admission back into the PNCLL?

What games have you played and how many?
How many road trips have you made?
What adult coaches have you found?
etc.

[Kyle Berggren]

Just curious....

What has Washington State done in the last season or two to warrant admission back into the PNCLL?

What games have you played and how many?
How many road trips have you made?
What adult coaches have you found?
etc.

Exactly. Most importantly to me, who's going to coach?

I personally know 3-5 players at WSU that plan on playing in '08. I know them well enough to know that if there is not a clear leader, you'll lose them & their interest. They'd rather make the trip here to play with a men's club team.

[nlyon02]

we have two former players who are interested in coaching. I know They are former players, but one is very serious about it, he and I help out with youth in Spokane trying to teach the game of lacrosse along the side of his cousin Chris Shogan (former PNCLL ALL STAR and GU assistant). The second is a grad student who played for U of Miami and VT. He is very skilled and has a couple years of grad school here. Other than that we are still looking into an older adult who lives in the area, because yes spokane is far.
we have also played games with idaho 4x, central, whitman, and Montana had to cancel on us, gu had to cancel on us (we planned for two games this semester with them), Then we tried with UPS and PLU but Bubba said we couldn't get a field and UPS said because of injuries it didn't look possible. So all though we only had 6 games (all but one on the road), you can't say it was a lack of effort.

[ZagGrad]

Thanks for the shout-out Nick...

I can attest to John's love of the game and devotion to developing a strong program at WSU. John is and would be an outstanding motivator as coach of the program. His leadership and direction would greatly benefit the team and his youth will act as a proponent for getting the freshman out on to the field. The active captains have done a fantastic job of seeding the team with talent and will continue to do so as more athletes arrive and see the motivation the captains bring. I really do think WSU has a future in the league.

As far as not having an "adult" or "grown-up" coach who is not a player, I'm not too concerned with that. I know it's a big deal for league execs and officers for determining the solidity of a program, but I could go either way with it. While Rick was attending and playing at GU his senior year, he pretty much was the head coach. I won't go in to details about it, but the program operated under his direction as he played. I guess it makes people feel secure when having that "adult" appearance in the box.

[Kyle Berggren]

Then we tried with UPS and PLU but Bubba said we couldn't get a field and UPS said because of injuries it didn't look possible. So all though we only had 6 games (all but one on the road), you can't say it was a lack of effort.

And now I strongly question what you're saying... I am the coach at UPS... You were told there isn't much open time, & we need to see what happens with the officials costs. Turns out game costs went up $100 a game, plus extras. I dropped it & never heard back from you. This is quite a while ago, so I'm not going to call you a liar, but obviously signals were crossed in the very least.

We know you were actually scheduling games until your program disappeared. You've been trying to schedule games for several years. There was talk from WSU that if you could have joined the B, you would have tried. And mention of not having to travel that would make it much easier for you. It's things like these that concern me personally. It means you're on the edge of able to meet your financial commitments.

All that said, I'd love to have WSU back. Playing in Martin stadium was incredible, I hope more get the chance to do so. What I don't want is a Linfield situation, in then out, or a team having problems & showing up with 11 players. I assume, and maybe this is a big assumption, but game fees will go up again. We barely broke even this year, & ref fees continue to go up. If the MCLA changes things again, we could have even higher fees from them. I don't want to make it sound like money makes the world go round, but right now, with our shortage of officials, it's a deciding factor in whether or not we can pay our bills.

To give you a rough idea, official fees in the PNCLL increased by about $35k... They aren't coming down, they're scheduled to increase. The downside of this is new teams will need more support from their Universities or non-profits to get rolling. The upside, officiating is getting better. We don't control it as a conference, but we get to deal with it. If WSU is tight financially, you might want to get in touch with the Board early September to get an idea of what they think dues might be. It would go a LONG way if you were ready to pay your league bill at the AGM.

There's one big problem with that, the schedule isn't made until we know what teams are in what division, conference, etc. It will have to be a guesstimate, & quite frankly, it's probably going to have to depend on what home games you have. Obviously that's going to be a problem.

[Band]

It should be considered that being in a competitive league will very likely increase the number of committed players on WSU's roster. Playing games that "don't mean anything" results in a lot of talent choosing to spend their time in other ways. Having met the guys running the show over at WSU Lax I think, it is my belief that allowing them into the league before their leadership graduates and moves on will likely result in the strongest WSU program possible in the years to come.
The league let Idaho in after only 1 season where we played 1 fall tournament and 2 or 3 spring games. We had no coach. We didn't have half the credentials that WSU has now and we haven't folded nor are we close to doing so. Have a little faith.

[Kyle Berggren]

Have a little faith.

The days are changing. I'd like to, but if a team folds, it has serious repercussions for the other teams in our league. As far as Idaho not being close to folding, that hasn't been the discussion over the last few years. Idaho was threatening to drop out if they weren't allowed to play in the B!!! Do you remember those conversations?

Regardless of the team, if it's UPS that folds mid '08, we lose our AQ. That's 1 class of seniors that may not get a trip to the National Tournament, regardless of they season of work. I'm not worried about the UPS kids, how bout the WWU guys or SOU guys. It's our job as a conference to protect the teams that are currently competing in it. I want WSU back in the conference, I'm not against it, but they need to be ready. I truly hope they are, I will help them in anyway that I can, but if we're wrong, it will effect the rest of our teams that are competing. This is why I am against re-instating Linfield.

[ZagGrad]

Who has voted "no" for this and why?

[Blake]

Regardless of the team, if it's UPS that folds mid '08, we lose our AQ.

Why would we lose our AQ if one team folded? Linfield folded and Montana did not lose their AQ. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Anyways, I'm not quite sure why Wazzu would not stack up. At ACI we were accepted in to the conference after three scrimages the season beforehand, and look how far the Yotes have come after having been shown "a little bit of faith."

Wazzu, on the other hand, has put together a good number of scrimmages, has some obvious leadership who has traveled to a couple of the general meetings, is constantly on these boards, and has been seeking advice on how to go about this in the correct way. I don't see why we wouldn't let them in based on how we've accepted teams in previous seasons.

I also agree with the idea that the team will be able to recruit more talent if their games actually mean something. I bet you that half the teams in this league would see a huge reduction in participation if their team only competed in a few scrimmages every season, especially when it came to practice attendance.

[Kyle Berggren]

Blake that was essentially mid thought... I was running about 3 thoughts together. I was caught between the financials of making a Nationals trip, needing 6 teams for an A AQ, possible restructure of the A, & not making a Nationals trip when bid... If money's very tight, & a conference winner doesn't make the trip, bye bye AQ. I believe I cut out all of that stuff, & didn't tie it back together. Thank you for catching that. I'll try to re-edit that post later.

Bottom line, it may be the right time for WSU to get back into the PNCLL. In my eyes, they need a coach to make it sustainable. While it's no guarantee of success, with their student body, I'd be shocked if a coach couldn't continue to field a very competitive team.

Times are changing in the MCLA guys. Games are being nationally televised, & right now, there's a big difference between the top 90 teams organization wise, & the bottom 90. They're looking to close that gap, not expand it, & a coach, while very difficult to find in Pullman, has to be found soon.

[Sonny]

Guys,

It's real simple.

I've never stepped foot in the great state of Washington, but I could spend about 90 minutes on the phone tomorrow from here in Georgia making a few calls and determine with a high degree of probability if Washington State (or any other new applicant team) is ready for the obligations and travel rigors associated with the PNCLL/MCLA.

I'm not passing judgement on anyone here including WSU. But it clear to me that the days of one player representative showing up at the conference meeting in late September or October with your hat in your hand, making a quick 5 minute presentation as they hope to impress a few Team Player presidents for admission into the conference should be well over.

And that is basically what some of you are advocating in your leap of faith... How the PNCLL has accepted teams in the past is part of the problem. Just look at Linfield, Washington State, Western Washington, Willamette, etc. to name a few.

Something about "Those Who Don't Learn From History... Are Doomed To Repeat It."

P.S. I'm not picking on the PNCLL. I fully realize that there are issues with this admission process in every other MCLA conference across the country right now. Frankly, I think the national MCLA board should evaluate new teams in a formal written process that includes multiple phone interviews with student leaders, adult coaches, sports club & faculty advisor leadership on campus, conference executives, officials, etc.

[TheNino57]

I agree with Kyle about coaches. The absentee coach method really doesn't work. Having a student rep/captain/player puts a lot of responsibility on one or two students and it can be overwhelming. Not to mention the fact that in order for a peer to coach peers, the other players need to have respect for their leader. This, IMHO, rarely occurs. Just because the program has a certain dynamic right now, next year it WILL change. I've seen a lot of player turnover here in Ellensburg over the last five years. Never has the team been comprised of the same players in a two year span. Maybe 8-10 (or less) returning players each year and then the other half of the team is new guys. Then, even if a program can find a coach who can be at every/most practices during the week, your players need to be in the right frame of mind to listen to that authority figure. CWU has had two resident coaches in the past. Both of these were fired after only one season. Program stability is a very big deal. Take a look at your own teams. Who are the guys on your team that take care of all of the behind the scenes work? Do you even know who does these things? Do you even know how much work this/these player(s) put into your program behind the scenes? Chances are, most players don't. If you remove these players from your program, do you have trustworthy individuals who can step up (key word: trustworthy)? Would you entrust the survival of your program to these folks? Things may seem very black and white to some, but admitting new programs, especially programs who used to be major players in this conference (and then let this conference down) is something that we need to make wise decisions about. Can these new/returning programs be viable for more than just the playing careers of the motivated few who do all of the behind-the-scenes work?

This conference may need to protect itself from ourselves.

Every season, it seems, there is team movement. Whether it be National restructuring or interdivisional realignment. This past season, before games started, was nice because it was the first time in a long time that the conference was the same as the year before. Then, unfortunate events occurred down in the B-South. We were all disappointed about what happened to Linfield, a team that, just the season before, was in the playoffs. It is difficult to have to explain league alignment systems and playoff protocols to new players, fans, and parents. There is no consistency so no one can be sure from year to year how the conference is functioning.

My point here is that the conference has a lot of programs at the moment. Growth might not be the most important thing right now. Sustainability might be more important and how well young clubs can become or maintain their sustainability. In the last four years, this conference has lost three programs (one program had its season cancelled mid-campaign) others have threatened forfeiture. Sorry to air the laundry but I personally feel that this issue is more serious than some of our fellow posters might realize. I'm not finger pointing or accusing, just stating my own personal opinions.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Guys,

It's real simple.

I've never stepped foot in the great state of Washington, but I could spend about 90 minutes on the phone tomorrow from here in Georgia making a few calls and determine with a high degree of proability if Washington State (or any other new applicant team) is ready for the obligations and travel rigors associated with the PNCLL/MCLA.

This is exactly what occurred, Sonny and then some. Jason, myself, and others on the EB have been in consultations with WSU player representatives, club sports deptartment and alumni over the past TWO seasons as their club has been reborn. It was lobbied by some that Wazzou was going to be at the 2006 AGM to apply for re-admission, but Jason dissuaded them for doing so, telling them that they just weren't ready. Just because we don't air every thing we do behind the scenes doesn't mean they haven't been happening. It remains to be seen whether a few stumbling blocks will be satisfactorily overcome before I will give my own blessing for a "yes" vote to my team. We want our cross-state, Pac-10 rival back in the PNCLL. But as Sonny said, quoting one of my own favorite lines:

Something about "Those Who Don't Learn From History... Are Doomed To Repeat It."

We got badly burned by WSU Lacrosse just a few years back. They don't get a completely clean slate, they have a "higher burden of proof" that they will get it right this time. I hope that is the case, but just have yet to be convinced that it is so. I did not vote in this poll, as there was no "MAYBE" option.