Div A Subdivisions

[A.J. Stevens]

who's to say that Lindenwood won't have any problems with the trip to MS?

Lindenwood has the best draw in this scenario. They can get all 3 games done in one long weekend.

Friday - Arkansas
Saturday - Memphis
Sunday - Mississippi

And then off to play BYU, CSU, Colorado, Duluth, Arizona, Michigan, Michigan State, Illinois etc. Where they belong.

[Arklax]

I understand that top teams in our conference want to play as many OOC games as possible. I understand that a win over Arkansas/Nebraska/Iowa by 10 or 15 (no offense to any of those teams) carries NO WEIGHT nationally, while a close game, win or lose, to UMD/Oregon/UF, etc. does get noticed. I understand that, as we see more parity across the league nationally, it's becoming more vital to schedule and win OOC games for the all-important At-large. But why should we set up a conference schedule to cater to those teams OOC interests, especially when it doesn't seem necessary?

How many OOC games does a team need? LU played 8 OOC games, including games against UMD, Arizona, Mich, and CSU, plus NCAA D-III Fontbonne. Illinois' schedule was comparable. Are the quality/quantity of these top teams not sufficient for pollsters to make an informed decision? Both had 7 conference games scheduled, so what's the change?

Teams in the SELC and LSA, two conferences somewhat comparable in size and division setup, play at least 5-6 conference games.

[A.J. Stevens]

The RMLC is the top conference in the MCLA and they only play 4 conference games. Why would we force the top GRLC teams to play 7 games in conference along with the standard ooc games to be competitive nationally? The GRLC will only improve as a conference when we make an effort to compete at the top level. Forcing a team to play 18-20 games a season is not needed. It cost Illinois $5000+ per weekend to play a road game in conference. Why not reduce the games required and let us use the money for plane tickets to California? I would encourage every team in our conference to play the best competition they have available and not pad their schedule with easy wins. What is the point of having a 10-4 record only to lose in the first round of the conference tournament.

#1 BYU played 12 ooc games
#2 Colorado State played 11 ooc games
#3 Oregon played 11 ooc games
#4 Michigan played 8 ooc games
#5 UCSB played 4 ooc games but have 5 ranked teams in conference
#6 Duluth played 5 ooc games
#7 Colorado played 13 ooc games
#8 Arizona played 9 ooc games
#9 Boston College played 7 ooc games
#10 Arizona State played 8 ooc games
#14 Lindenwood played 8 ooc games
#23 Illinois played 10 ooc games

It is clear that you need to travel to be a top team.

[Troy Hood]

I'm on board with Coach Stevens. From another perspective, it may appear to be self-serving. But, in order to move forward and improve as an organization, we need to get as many games from outside the GRLC as possible if we're going to get a high enough seed to crack the first round at nationals.

I've tried it both ways: playing the conference opponents and getting a few choice games outside the conference; and, loading up the schedule with 18+ games prior to the conference tournament. Neither works to the benefit of the team. Either we don't get enough exposure to high level teams, or, we're burned out with 21 games under our belt before we suit up at Nationals.

If you take a look at Harding, they are doing the Division B equivalent of the same thing. They played four games within their subdivision (as required), and then went OOC (Calvin - top 15, St. Thomas - top 5, and Southwestern - top 15) or to GRLC Division "A" teams for better competition. This is no way intended to be a slight against the other "B" teams in the GRLC. But, do we have to wonder why they were so dominant this season?

If we do this, it will only make our conference better. I still plan on playing teams within the GRLC with whom we've developed rivalries (ie: Illinois, Mizzou, Mo State).

This benefits the entire conference in other ways as well. Since we've returned from Dallas, I've fielded several calls from OOC teams that want to come to the area and play. When was the last time that happened? Because Illinois sacked up and went to BYU and played (and we'll be going this year), the National Champions will be here in '09. Because we went to Ann Arbor and Fort Collins in the past, both UM and CSU came to St. Charles this season. While we sacrificed our 39 game home winning streak, the event was spectacular, and we played some of the best lacrosse in the history of our program.

Where is this leading? I would like to invite you all on this bandwagon. Let's get our name out there, expose ourselves to superior competition, and bring back that experience to the GRLC. Mo. State has done with N-Texas, Missouri played in New England (and played #9 BC to a 10-6 game), and Illinois has a nice laundry list of teams that they've exchanged home games with.

This year, the PCLL entered two teams in the MCLA nationals for the first time ever. Although they've won all of the titles to date, the MCLA does not have to be totally dominated by the RMLC and WCLL. The PNCLL moved forward this year on the backs of Oregon (trust me!! They're good!) Florida and Georgia spoke up for the SELC. I'd like to see two teams from GRLC-A and GRLC-B in the tournament.

Sorry to be so long-winded, gentlemen. But, I thought it was important to make the point now while we are just starting to prepare. I look forward to your comments in the fall.

[wheatonlax20]

I know that this is all about the A division and OOC play, I just wanted to throw my 5 cents in about OOC games

Although I know that I record does not deserve any kind of national recognition (4-9), our Wheaton team got behind the same idea that I see been put out here, play as many good OOC games as you can...

We played 4 top 25 OOC teams:

Grand Valley (7 goal loss)
Ferris State (1 goal loss)
Calvin (3 goal loss)
PLU (3 goal win)

Although we didn't win as much, we know that our lacrosse team gets better as we look to become a team that can play with the big boys in the nation. Maybe next year when we come up against some quality teams, some more results swing our way. This experience in not just playing other GRLC-B teams and our two OOC games has made us better and will help us in the future. I think that this is the best thing we as a conference can do, go head to head with the nation's best and improve our overall ability and recognition.

[Timbalaned]

This may have been said, but I didn't feel like reading everything, so I am going to say it again anyway. In the PNCLL they are struggling with the same issue of dividing up the league into divisions. One division would be way stronger than the other right now, but locationly, it is clearly the only way to do it. You don't set up a league based on strength, that will come and go. You set it up on what is best for the league in the long run, ie travel and most logical. If setting up the North right now is going to make it the strongest right now, then so be it, because in 5 years it might suck, then what happens to your pretty alignment? You set it up regionally and you will never have to change it because it will always be justified. Just my two cents.

[NELAX21]

This may have been said, but I didn't feel like reading everything, so I am going to say it again anyway. In the PNCLL they are struggling with the same issue of dividing up the league into divisions. One division would be way stronger than the other right now, but locationly, it is clearly the only way to do it. You don't set up a league based on strength, that will come and go. You set it up on what is best for the league in the long run, ie travel and most logical. If setting up the North right now is going to make it the strongest right now, then so be it, because in 5 years it might suck, then what happens to your pretty alignment? You set it up regionally and you will never have to change it because it will always be justified. Just my two cents.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The 3 of the top 5 teams argument is from this past season. In 2 years that could all change and all 4 of the top teams could be in the same division. Also, look at the playoffs this year, 4 teams made it. I have one team in Mizzou in the West. 2 in the north with Lindenwood and Illinois. and 1 in the south with Missouri state... so i don't know how much more balanced it could be if you are looking at top teams from the conference. It just doesn't make sense to me to have to spend money on a trip, or probably 2 acrose Iowa when KU and KSU are both in our back yard and we can save money to make a OOC game instead of buying hotel rooms and traveling to Illinois?

AJ, would you be happy if you were put in the west with Nebraska, Kansas and Kansas State? when you could play illinois state and iowa who are a lot closer and would save you money to go make a trip OOC?

[Arklax]

To be fair, the RMLC only has 5 teams, so playing more than 4 conference games can't really happen. They are still playing 100% of their conference opponents, along with the PNCLL, the UMLL, and the PCLL. Teams in those conferences held their own at nationals.

Again, I completely understand why OOC games improve teams/conferences. I’m just not convinced it requires 10 of them. Duluth was 6 goals away from being the #1 seed going into nationals: 5 OOC games, 7 conference games.

Surely we aren’t proposing just 3 meaningful conference games, are we? What’s the point of having a conference if you do that? How about at least 5 meaningful (read playoff implications) games, with all others having no affect on playoff qualifying. I’ll say a 2 division North/South or East/West split would be better than 3 divisions.

[A.J. Stevens]

Another option being proposed by a few coaches is to have a developmental subdivision. This division would have all of the teams playing down along with any teams struggling to compete either on or off the field. The winner of the subdivision would move up the next season.

Div A
Illinois
Illinois State
Kansas
Lindenwood
Missouri
Missouri State

Div AA
Arkansas
Iowa
Kansas State
Memphis
Nebraska
Mississippi

[Troy Hood]

Relegation...sounds very British!

[NELAX21]

[quote="A.J. Stevens"]Another option being proposed by a few coaches is to have a developmental subdivision. This division would have all of the teams playing down along with any teams struggling to compete either on or off the field. The winner of the subdivision would move up the next season.

Div A
Illinois
Illinois State
Kansas
Lindenwood
Missouri
Missouri State

Div AA
Arkansas
Iowa
Kansas State
Memphis
Nebraska
Mississippi[/quoOnly having 6 teams in would lose our AQ to nationals correct? If we are trying to make a name for our conference why would we take our AQ to nationals away?

[A.J. Stevens]

A coference needs 6 teams to get an AQ. The developmental division would be a part of the A division but not eligible for the GRLC AQ. That would give the GRLC 12 teams with no problem maintaining the AQ.

[A.J. Stevens]

You took the words right out of my mouth. The 3 of the top 5 teams argument is from this past season. In 2 years that could all change and all 4 of the top teams could be in the same division.

That would be great! We can realign the subdivisions when that happens. The GRLC started in 2003. Let's look at the teams in the finals each year.

2003 Washington over Illinois
2004 Missouri over Illinois
2005 Lindenwood over Illinois
2006 Lindenwood over Illinois
2007 Lindenwood over Illinois

Illinois and lindenwood scored 20 goals on the 3rd seeded team during the regular season. I want to see the teams in the GRLC get better but it is not going to happen without some change.

AJ, would you be happy if you were put in the west with Nebraska, Kansas and Kansas State? when you could play illinois state and iowa who are a lot closer and would save you money to go make a trip OOC?

Thats works for me. Travel should not be an issue for a team competing in the A division. This proposal is meant to reduce the required games. If travel is your number one concern then maybe you guys are not ready. That is unless you only plan on playing the required GRLC games to avoid unnecessary travel. The purpose of this proposal is to give teams a little more flexibility in creating a schedule that works for them. Lindenwood had two required games canceled this season. Is it fair to make a team sit nearly two weeks without a game because the opposing team does not want to play them?

[bste_lax]

Another option being proposed by a few coaches is to have a developmental subdivision. This division would have all of the teams playing down along with any teams struggling to compete either on or off the field. The winner of the subdivision would move up the next season.

Div A
Illinois
Illinois State
Kansas
Lindenwood
Missouri
Missouri State

Div AA
Arkansas
Iowa
Kansas State
Memphis
Nebraska
Mississippi

I am sort of digging this.

[KnoxVegas]

What about this:

GRLC East
Illinois
Illinois St.
Iowa
Lindenwood
Memphis
Mississippi

GRLC West
Arkansas
Kansas
Kansas St.
Missouri
Missouri St.
Nebraska

Each team would be required to play the other teams in its own division, once. Playoffs would be made up of the top two teams in each division.

This would free up teams to play as many OOC games as they would like and geographically helps with travel for intra-conference games.