One Team Dominance

[DanGenck]

Um yah.

[TexOle]

There have been talks of dropping multiple athletic teams at Olaf during different times. The question that the school uses is "How does (blank) fit in the mission of St. Olaf?" Tennis was dropped mid season a few years ago since it failed to meet the mission of St. Olaf. It resumed the following year after a review by numerous people. The Nursing program also saw this question a few years ago.

Academics do not influence whether or not you get athletes. I know plenty of smart athletes that choose to go to academically rigorous institutions and those that go for the athletic opportunities at a particular school. The issue of someone's ACT score is irrelevant to his choice of school for lacrosse purposes. My point is where geographically can you attract your student body from. Does UMD have national reputation? I think we can all say the answer is probably no. UMD does have a great local reputation for some programs, and that helps. Those programs allow them to get some good students that also are good lacrosse players. I know many of the Duluth players, and I can attest to their qualities. Every so often one of their players would complain about playing lacrosse the night before an AP test. Carleton does have a national reputation, and they can get students from all over the country and world. Your reputation does have some influence on what students you get which can influence where you might get some lacrosse players. St. Olaf was scheduled to get a NCAA D2 quality player that just could not get in for some reason. I never officially heard why he was not accepted. St. Olaf's academics and reputation in Colorado were a reason he wanted to go to Olaf.

Another reason I think certain schools do better in the UMLL is volunteering away from their home team. Coach Graff had a list where most of the coaches were from, and I think the bulk of the HCs and ACs came from Duluth. Members of SJU and UST have done a good job at getting involved at the high school level. That also helps. I had a coach who knew I was St. Olaf student ask me to talk to a player of his who was attending St. Olaf the following year so that that player could play lacrosse if he wanted. I also heard about a certain person who used to give all Junior players a flier about his college program. The flier just let the player know that there was a team at that particular school, and if they wanted to play it was possible. Volunteering at the lower levels does help with getting the word out about a team.

St. Olaf is starting to get some former players coaching which will help them in the future, but it takes time.

[Gooseguy10]

What tex is saying is that the academics draw people from lacrosse hotbeds out east. We saw this with Carlton back in the late 1990's. They would have one or two players that were pretty good because they played back east.

[RealisticObserver]

(this is a lax site, so I am not going to get into what school is better academically)

Facts:
UMD has been the dominant force, the leading force in the UMLL and the gap is not closing. UMD is actually closing the gap on top national teams.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL. They were dominant after it was the UMLL.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL A/B divisions.
They are dominant after UMLL A/B divisions.
They were dominant before they could or couldn't recruit.
They were dominant before highschools had lacrosse.
They are dominant now that it is varisty in highschools.
They were dominant before Coach Graff was on the sideline every game.
They are dominant now, when Coach Graff is not there for every practice.
They were dominant with players who never picked up a stick before. They are dominant with experienced players.
They don't have the most "attractive" school location. (see foggy, snowy, cold 9 months of the year)
They are not a "big" school with a large student body to pull from.
They have lost championships and come back even better.
They have won championships and come back even better.
When the competition is down in the UMLL, they go find competition elsewhere.

Why is the UMD program so established? It hasn't been around any longer than Carleton, Olaf, UofM, Mankato, SCSU, etc...- UMD doesn't care about any of the above. Just say when and where and they will show up and play 100%.

Other programs act like it is some "silver spoon" privilege, or "it is the talent level of players" or "it is the coaching" or "it is the administrative support". It is not one single aspect. It is simply pride, commitment, preparation, and expectation that when you come to Duluth, you will learn quick from the team, coaches and alumni, that if you have pride, commit, prepare, and expect it... you will leave a winner and a champion. Not just on the field but all around. And when you leave, you remember to give something back. (see>> how many UMD alums are coaching in MN Highschools? How many UMD alums support the current program?)

If you are a highschool lax player in MN, and your academic goals can be reached at numerous schools, there is no choice on which school is the lacrosse leader.

(and for those that say a player shouldn't just go to a school for lax, can you please refer to Highschool or UofM players that have left the state to make a run at some D-3 dream only to come back and wish they had not gone. Instead of insinuating that players only go to UMD to play lax and are overlooking their academic life)

Well said whomever mentioned it is funny how those not in the UMD program make assumptions on how it is run and what parts of the college experience are stressed.

[fischman]

Thank you for stating the obvious...

and I really think that other teams show up and play 100% as well. Nobody is saying it is a bad thing that Duluth is the dominant force. I don't know why you have to remind everybody of that.

They DO have a very established program which is why they are always good... you said it yourself when you talked about High Schoolers going to play there.

[RealisticObserver]

I wasn't implying that people were saying UMD being dominant was bad, but I was trying to give some answer to the original post. Why is one team so dominant?
Many seem to think it is the talented players, the best coaches, etc... I was stating facts that UMD hasn't always had the best of everything.
So to use an excuse, "we don't get the best players because we are not as established as UMD." "or we don't have the strong coaches" is weak.

And what does "established program" mean? UMD is no more established than the other programs that started in the early 1990's. The guys who started the program just decided they didn't want to be like the rest of the pack. They didn't care they had no coach, no experience. They didn't go find and stack up with out-east talent.

And I did mis-communicate what I meant by 100%. It is not enough to just show up on game day and give 100%.
I agree, most players/teams do give 100% at the game, but 100% has to be throughout. And it has to be a smart, efficient 100%.
Perspiration doesn't equal success.
And 100% all the time doesn't mean you can't have your fun as a college student.

[Johnnielax13]

RealisticObserver said:

Facts:
UMD has been the dominant force, the leading force in the UMLL and the gap is not closing. UMD is actually closing the gap on top national teams.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL. They were dominant after it was the UMLL.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL A/B divisions.
They are dominant after UMLL A/B divisions.
They were dominant before they could or couldn't recruit.
They were dominant before highschools had lacrosse.
They are dominant now that it is varisty in highschools.
They were dominant before Coach Graff was on the sideline every game.
They are dominant now, when Coach Graff is not there for every practice.
They were dominant with players who never picked up a stick before. They are dominant with experienced players.
They don't have the most "attractive" school location. (see foggy, snowy, cold 9 months of the year)
They are not a "big" school with a large student body to pull from.
They have lost championships and come back even better.
They have won championships and come back even better.

That was 100% boring.
And 100% cliche.

60% of the time, a cliche will work everytime.

[RealisticObserver]

RealisticObserver said:

Facts:
UMD has been the dominant force, the leading force in the UMLL and the gap is not closing. UMD is actually closing the gap on top national teams.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL. They were dominant after it was the UMLL.
They were dominant before it was the UMLL A/B divisions.
They are dominant after UMLL A/B divisions.
They were dominant before they could or couldn't recruit.
They were dominant before highschools had lacrosse.
They are dominant now that it is varisty in highschools.
They were dominant before Coach Graff was on the sideline every game.
They are dominant now, when Coach Graff is not there for every practice.
They were dominant with players who never picked up a stick before. They are dominant with experienced players.
They don't have the most "attractive" school location. (see foggy, snowy, cold 9 months of the year)
They are not a "big" school with a large student body to pull from.
They have lost championships and come back even better.
They have won championships and come back even better.

That was 100% boring.
And 100% cliche.

60% of the time, a cliche will work everytime.

And your point is what? I have no problem getting in a discussion with an SJU rep.

[Johnnielax13]

Sorry, I am bored outta my mind at work. I was just hoping that you would have brought up some ideas outside of a recruiting brochure. I think that UMD is the most dominant team in the league. I agree with you that UMD is closing the gap nationally with other top programs, but I think that the talent gap IS closing within this league as well.

I think nationally, there is a stigma of the B division being a developmental league. I think it is a two headed monster especially in the UMLL. It's hard to distinguish between a dev league and a league for smaller schools because MN, WI, and IA all have a ton of "small schools." We place new teams in the B division for a probationary period, which is fine. But some of the small schools play at a high enough level to compete with a larger school (and UMD has to be considered a large school).

I think that everyone can agree that the overall talent displayed by every team in the UMLL has increased exponentially over the past few years, with the exception on UMD, because they had a head start. So it seems only logical that the gap would be closing.


For someone who was defensive and said that you are tired of "those not in the UMD program mak(ing) assumptions on how it is run and what parts of the college experience are stressed." You should be fair to everyone else and not assume that other teams just "show up on game day and give 100%."

Unless you are from Edina, I didn't think you could have your cake and eat it too. (No offense to Edina)

So forgive me if I sounded snide in my earlier remark, I was just bored and trying to elicit a response.

[RealisticObserver]

I was just hoping that you would have brought up some ideas outside of a recruiting brochure.

I think nationally, there is a stigma of the B division being a developmental league. I think it is a two headed monster especially in the UMLL. It's hard to distinguish between a dev league and a league for smaller schools because MN, WI, and IA all have a ton of "small schools." We place new teams in the B division for a probationary period, which is fine. But some of the small schools play at a high enough level to compete with a larger school (and UMD has to be considered a large school).

I think that everyone can agree that the overall talent displayed by every team in the UMLL has increased exponentially over the past few years, with the exception on UMD, because they had a head start. So it seems only logical that the gap would be closing.


For someone who was defensive and said that you are tired of "those not in the UMD program mak(ing) assumptions on how it is run and what parts of the college experience are stressed." You should be fair to everyone else and not assume that other teams just "show up on game day and give 100%."

Unless you are from Edina, I didn't think you could have your cake and eat it too. (No offense to Edina)

So forgive me if I sounded snide in my earlier remark, I was just bored and trying to elicit a response.

I didn't take your remarks as offensive. But like most, you miss the points and excuses run on.....

It was not a recruiting brochure, just facts.

I don't consider B league developmental, just a lesser league. That is a fact. Sure some B teams can beat A teams, but overall the level is lower, thus there is a "B" league. (argue whatever you want, it was formed to promote and keep the interest of lax at schools where the talent level wasn't improving. Who fault is that??)
Why should Duluth be considered a "large school". Because they dominate the UMLL A league? They are middle of the pack in school size. Not a Large School.

The league has improved overall, but the gap from UMD to the rest is no closer than it was 10 years ago.
How did UMD have a head start on talent level? In 1990 UMD didn't score a goal, didn't win a game. The majority of UMD's existence has been playing with players that had no lax experience when arriving at UMD. Gustavus and Carleton won the championships before UMD ever did. Mankato won a cup, UofM 2, didn't SJU beat UMD in 1997? but what happened after those wins, did they suddenly forget how to play? (maybe they loaded up on 5,6 year players to win finally?)

And UMD's talent is increasing just as much as any other team in the league. And if they had a "headstart" as you say, then how is that gap going to close?

I will admit I can't be sure how much other teams are putting into their programs, but as the great Kid Rock said "you get what you put in, and people get what they deserve."
So teams need to ask, are they really putting in the amount of work needed and getting the results to make the argument that they are closing the gap?
(note, forming another league might give a team something to shoot for, getting a #1 next to your teams name is nice, but that doesn't mean you are closing in on the top dogs.)

[umlax32]

Wow....way to show some class! SJU and STU are having amazing seasons (who cares if it is B league...they are still the first UMLL teams to be ranked in the top 3 in the nation). The state of MN is getting recognized for having some great lacrosse players, but yet you are on here bashing their teams because they are in a different league.

Why can't you show some respect for the other teams in the league? If you have forgotten, the UMLL is a CLUB league where student athletes are all making a sacrifice (financially and socially) to play on the lacrosse team. Each team works hard in the off season to get better...now I know you will say that they don't work AS hard as Duluth, but the fact of the matter is every team is making a sacrifice and trying to improve.

But hey, I am glad that you are getting your thrills by talking about how great your team is at lacrosse over a message board. And people wonder why Duluth has a reputation of being a bunch of arrogant.......