Big Ten Tournament/U of Wisconsin discussion

[NULax Coach]

I have been reading this line of discussion with interest, as I was unable to attend the Big Ten Tournament due to a personal commitment. I would like to say just a few words in defense of Hal, UW Lax and the GLLC (the league in which UW and Northwestern U both compete).
Yes, those of you who compete in the MDIA are right, it is not NCAA lacrosse. That being said, in the GLLC season we have reached a set of rules that is a merging of NCLL rules and NCAA rules. We do not play with unlimited long poles (however several of the men's clubs here in Chicago do play that so it is not as unheard of as has been alleged here).
What is being lost is that Hal organized a hell of a tournament.
It is known that UW has no desire to move to perceived level of competition seen in the MDIA. We at Northwestern made a decision to move from the GRLC to the GLLC because we came to realize that we were not willing to commit to the level of the MDIA. As I am sure you all are aware, the MDIA is not for all club teams and I know that the teams in our league are grateful to Hal for his leadership.
I am not sure if my comments are constructive or not, but I do feel that it is important that it not just be chest thumping and finger pointing but that there be a real discourse taking place because an event like this could help bridge gaps so perhaps constructive comments looking toward improving the event and not simply destructive retreats to your friends may be the tack to follow.
If you would like to know more feel free to email me or send me a private message. Thanks.

[Jolly Roger]

and the rules were changed on thursday night, 48 hours before the tournament started

Rule variances, site of games, switching around schedules are all things one has to get used to when playing at Madison. It's been going on longer than the undergraduates on their roster have been alive (that's over 22 years for the mathematically disinclined). If you're hosting them, prepare for the team to leave early or don't be surprised if they quit in the middle of a game (I've witnessed both on more than one occasion). One just has to know what they're getting into when you schedule the Badgers.

[Sonny]

It is known that UW has no desire to move to perceived level of competition seen in the MDIA.

Known by whom? And assuming that is true, what competition are they scared of?

[John Paul]

If I may interject here - who cares? Wisconsin (and Northwestern) have chosen to play at a different, more traditional, club level of the game. That's up to them, and I don't think we have any place to be critical of that. Do I wish they'd suddenly "see the light" and find the desire to play at a more organized level? Sure. Does it effect me if they don't? Nope. Not as long as I don't play them. Let them do their thing and give them respect for playing the game, no matter how different (or similar) it is to our style. If you choose to play them, understand that there will be differences, and you may not like all of those - but you have to accept them. If those differences make you nervous, don't schedule them. Simple.

Side note, I played against Wisconsin back in the mid and late 80's when Hal was still playing and running the team even then. We all had older players and looser rules back then, and I had a blast. For my first couple of years Wisconsin was our biggest conference rival. I can tell you though, as a competitor I would have given almost anything for the opportunity to play for a more committed, organized team and a national championship if both had existed back then. But we had plenty of guys who didn't share that desire, some of whom were outstanding lacrosse players. Those same kind of guys are driving the GLLC teams now.

[NULax Coach]

John,
Thank you for those words of affirmation. I think you hit it right on the head there. Thanks.

[laxfan25]

The POV was wrong for anyone watching the posted video or anyone on the near sidelines to see the push. I'm not surprised AJ or another official would come to that conclusion from that viewing angle. The video footage I have shows it pretty clear.

Are you referring to the middie driving down who stumbles and falls? If that is what you are referring to by the POV, who pushed him? There was nobody around him. I'm not looking to stoke any fires here, I just went back and watched the clip again, and wondered how you could say that it was a POV thing as to the player going down.
I will say after watching it again that a ref could easily have called a slash when they were chopping at the guy once he was on the ground, but it was initially presented that there was a push call and that I don't see at all.
Play on!

[Rob Graff]

Sonny - Pls don't dun me for double posting, but as league director of the UMLL, I'd like to share my opinion on this issue with the CCLA. I first posted this in the UMLL Forum. I re-post the relevant part of it here:

Guys:

> > >

The MDIA level is not for all teams or all schools. It is a SIGNIFICANT financial committment and time committment that is NOT for everyone. AND THAT IS OK! We are not some prosthelitizing group that declares "You are either with us or you are worthless." There is room for the GLLC and for individual team decisions about the level of committment that they wish for themselves. And saying that is not meant to demean or diminish that decision. If UW and others want to stay in the GLLC that's fine and I wish them the best. And I'd suggest you should too because that is THEIR wish.

. . .

Rob

[licap96]

I am a player on the wisconsin lacrosse team with just a few things to say. First, the call was not a push, i was literally right there when the ref explained the call to the mich state sideline....he said "you can not hit/slash a player when he is down on the ground".....there is a difference from slashing at the players stick in an attempt to get the ball as opposed to taking tomahawk chops at our best player. Their longpoles, while very good took cheap shots all game. Mich State showed terrible sportsmanship throughout the game, taunting our sidelines and making remarks in the handshakeline (yes i did hear a coach, not sure which one, call us cheaters). While many would debate who the better team is few would argue which is classier.
Second, while we do often play with older players, in this tournament we were not. Sure we had a couple few fifth year seniors, (our best which was hurt for the mich. state game adn no different from many D I programs ), but our midfield unit consisted of two true seniors, a mix of juniors and sophmores, and two freshman. That doesn't sound too rediculous to me.
Finally, while I dont feel the need to justify anything about our team, we play simply for the love of the game. Just because we dont want to pay thousands to travel all over the place, have curfews, practice every day, and look real cool should not take away from this amazing program coach hal has built. Plus it feels that much better to know we won the championship with half a hangover. We know our role in the lacrosse world, as we do not pretend were something were not.
"People with integrity do what they say they are going to do. Others have excuses". We accomplished our goal this season and there is nothing any sore loser can say to take away from that. Ive heard enough of this rubbish. Nuff said.

P.S. Bernstein for heisman

[Sonny]

Since this topic has altered so much from the original topic, lets move it out of the CCLA forum to the main USLIA.com forum.

[Sonny]

Just because we dont want to pay thousands to travel all over the place, have curfews, practice every day, and look real cool should not take away from this amazing program coach hal has built.

I'm confused licap96.

Your own team web site has your club traveling to Italy next January for games in Rome & Florence. Surely, someone is shelling out "thousands" for trans-Atlantic travel, lodging, and competition. It can't be those restrictive fund-raising rules at UW?

Our biggest news is our plan to travel to Italy this January to play the Italian National team as well as the Rome and Florence clubs

Some players from the UW teams will be going to Italy to play in the Italian Friendship Lacrosse Tour in Florence and Rome in January and plans are underway to take a Winter break trip (not sponsored through club sports) to Italy in Jan 2006 . We will combine playing and presenting lacrosse clinics , with a chance to see and experience Italy . All players are invited, although space may be limited .

Your team is planning an expensive trip to Italy, but can't handle the rigors of travel at the MDIA (collegiate) level within the Midwest?

Paying for apparel that looks real cool doesn't seem to be an issue with your team either:

New players

Make sure you come to these practices . Dues are $75 for a semester (or $100 for a year) and uniforms are $40 for Jersey , $40 for shorts . Bring it to the first practice. Also White / red brim Team helmets will be available for $100 as well as custom Wisconsin Warrior Superstar Gloves [$105].

I don't know Hal and I've never met a single player (past, present, or future) from the U of Wisconsin Lacrosse program. But after much reading, it's clear to me that these are just unfounded excuses.

I would welcome the UW program to the MDIA fold and I'm sure they would enjoy the higher competition. Maybe you can set some higher goals in the future. After 8+ seasons of MDIA lacrosse, I assure that "raising that bar" isn't as difficult as you make it out to be.

SOURCE:
http://lax.rso.wisc.edu/

[mholtz]

The call that the ref called was a 30 second push. I wish there was a book. I wish he'd called a slash. But that's just beating a dead horse.

Also, I never meant to degrade the GLLC for playing with different rules. If people took it that way, I'm sorry. I simply meant that we are currently in the MDIA, so we can't afford to spend a lot of money for a trip like this without it helping us for the spring. I know there is a place for the GLLC and I know that not all teams want to work as hard as we do. We also don't have a huge budget, so we try to spend smartly. That is why I was frustrated that this configuration didn't help us much for the spring.

Third, I wish the Wisconsin the best of luck. I have the tape, and have recordings of some of my players heckling the side lines. That was all in good fun, trust me, but I will address it with the players involved.

I would like to know via email, or PM more information about one of my coaches calling players cheaters. I take that seriously. That is never called for. I can say that I have the word of all my coaches that they didn't say it. Are you sure it wasn't a player that wasn't dressed doing that? Not that it makes it any better. I just know that I could hear my coaches from where I was, and I never heard it.

I take this allegation seriously, and I will deal with any credible evidence that shows a lack of sportsmanship on the part of my team, or any of my staff.

I still don't believe the officiating was the best, but then again, I never do. I don't want to imply that it was the fault of the UW team that the ref's weren't on their best game that day.

We won't be going back to UW in the near future, but it has nothing to do with this game. It has to do with a tight budget that requires us to get as much out of every penny we spend on travel like this. We need to play in tournaments that prepare us for the spring.

If your goal for the season was to win this tournament, then congratulations. You've achieved your goal. I don't think that you guys are chaters. I don't think that we deserved to win. I started this whole mess simply to show off our new video system, and it's spiraled into a smack fest about whether GLLC lax sucks or doesn't. The answer is, as many have said, it doesn't. It has it's place, as does NCAA, NCLL, and MDIA.

I'll finish with an apology. If one of my coaches, staff, or players called anyone cheaters then I will deal with it swiftly, and I apologize for that insult that is uncalled for.

[tamu33]

First let me say that I have just seen this topic and only wish to input my opinion as a ref and I do not intend to attack anyone.

The Video:
I reviewed the video of the penalty and I completely agree with a whistle being blown and a flag. One can clearly see that :35 secs into the video there is a blatant slash on the head by a Green (MSU, I assume) player (to clarify the one on the right).

The explanation of the call:
While I can't officially tell you what was called, I can tell you how to differentiate between the precieved call and the actual penalty. If it was a push with possession (technical foul) then Red would receive a man up opportunity for 30 secs. Now if it was relayed to the bench as a slash (personal foul) then it would be a 1 min man up. So check your books or the film and see what was called. That should clear up what was called.

If indeed it was a push call, it was a very weak call and from the video's angle I could not see any push. Although, a push could be called if one of the green players used their knee to keep the player on the ground. In that case it could be one of two calls. Either a push or a hold call (both technical fouls, 30 secs).


NCAA vs. Club rules
As for the complaining about what type rules they will use in a tournament, that is just silly and it should not be complained about in a public forum. As an administrator/coach/president for your team you should be knowledgable of what types of venues your team will play in. Obviously if you head to John Paul's neck of the woods, you expect to play under the current USL-MDIA guidelines and rules, unless rule waviers are in place ahead of time. Heading to a college campus in which they are not part of the USL-MDIA or NCAA, you can expect to play under what ever guidelines and regulations they play under. Why should they change when you are coming to their fields?

As far as club rules not helping out with your game in the spring. I can't help but think that playing against six long poles wouldn't help your offense. As a middie, there is nothing more challenging than taking a long pole from the top. Plus, it will help with off ball movement because of the increased difficulty to seperate from the defender. The only area I see it hurting is your defense and club rules state you can have 6 poles.... not that you have to use 6. So what harm could it do.

Officiating problems:
Why not invite clinicians to come to the tournament to use it as a training tournament for officials. This way you have USL trained officials reviewing most of the games.

[licap96]

Sonny,
How can you compare paying for a trip to Italy, one of the most fascinating countries in the world to paying for buses and hotels every other weekend just to play two games? Dont be so closeminded. Second, the gloves nor the helmet are required. I payed $100 for a great season of fall lacrosse. You have no clue about any of the details of this team, you just compehend information to tell you what you want to hear....capiche?

[LaxRef]

NCAA vs. Club rules
As for the complaining about what type rules they will use in a tournament, that is just silly and it should not be complained about in a public forum. As an administrator/coach/president for your team you should be knowledgable of what types of venues your team will play in. Obviously if you head to John Paul's neck of the woods, you expect to play under the current USL-MDIA guidelines and rules, unless rule waviers are in place ahead of time. Heading to a college campus in which they are not part of the USL-MDIA or NCAA, you can expect to play under what ever guidelines and regulations they play under. Why should they change when you are coming to their fields?

Just a side note: nothing drives me nuts than doing a tournament like this and not being able to get a straight answer about what the rules will be. Whatever we get will be word of mouth, and then something will happen and people will say "Well, the rule for this tournament says X," and we say, "Well, no one told us that!"

If you want to run a good tournament, put your rule variations in writing and get them to the officials before the tournament begins. Personally, I don't think any officials should be assigned to a game unless the assignor has already received the rule variations in writing.

[LaxRef]

Sonny,
How can you compare paying for a trip to Italy, one of the most fascinating countries in the world to paying for buses and hotels every other weekend just to play two games? Dont be so closeminded. Second, the gloves nor the helmet are required. I payed $100 for a great season of fall lacrosse. You have no clue about any of the details of this team, you just compehend information to tell you what you want to hear....capiche?

Nothing's wrong with choosing to travel to Italy. However, you can't sit there and say, "We can't afford to play MDIA" if you have the money for a trip like that.

Granted, you may feel that it is a better use of your money to travel to Italy, and I'd be the last person to argue with you. It's your choice how to spend your money, and a matter of your own and your team's priorities.