Big Ten Tournament/U of Wisconsin discussion

[Sonny]

Can we ever hope to see a MDIA play any D3 teams like Salisbury, Nazareth, or Middlebury? Heck, what about an MDIA team playing against a D1 opponent like UPenn, Ohio State, or Delaware as an early regular season match-up.

As stated in the Message Board Rules, please stay on topic! You are free to start another thread, if you so choose about this topic LaxDude. Thanks.

[Badger35]

I never thought I would be posting on these boards since I’m not a member of USLIA anymore. The topic is something I’m fairly close too, so I’m going to comment to correct a few of the things that were said. First I’ll give my background to give some credence to any points I may make. I never played lacrosse in High School but was given the opportunity to play when I decided to go to Georgia Tech for my first two years of college. Coaches Ken, Dan, and Rob taught me the sport in a competitive USLIA environment. I’m very grateful to them for that since I love this sport now. I was forced to transfer to Madison for obviously non-lacrosse reason ($$$). Being as such, I’ve played in the USLIA and know the atmosphere and have just finished up my playing at Wisconsin with the MSU game (btw Coach Holtz could I get a copy of the tape of my last game, thanks) since I’m graduating. So here are a few things that I will clarify. I didn’t want to reread the 6 pages of posts so I’m just going to hit the highlights that I can remember.

Coach John Paul- You made a very good point that if we’re having votes to see whether we should join the USLIA, then there must be a push to join by some people on our team. Actually, its our Coach Hal that requests me to hold the vote each year and if this team ever did go USLIA he would still be the coach anyway, he loves this sport way too much to stop and we’re lucky to have him. Right now “our team” consists of an A and a B team comprising 60 or so players. If we were going to go USLIA we would have to cut that down to around 35 at most so that would be 25 no votes right there. Then there are a bunch of guys (namely our best east coasters, all of who are undergrads to stem that debate) who would quit and thus vote no to joining. I’m sure there are people at this school that would rather play a virtual varsity style but they are in the minority, as are the people at schools like GT that would rather play more of a club style (Oaks you know who I’m talking about). Oh and Coach, yeah that is Lee Lowenthal and yes he is nasty. I haven’t talked to him yet but I’m sure he’s grateful for the shoutout.

Licap96 is a talented freshman on our team from Maryland that has embraced our squad in the short time he has been here. Its commendable that he is trying to defend the team and Hal, but when things were getting heated he said some things he shouldn’t. He is a freshman and doesn’t speak for the older guys on the lax team. He hasn’t been here long enough to make a real informed decision but in a few years he’ll have more insight on the topic.

I’m not even sure who Kevin Boyle is so any of the long posts he made about the UW lax team should be taken with a grain of salt. Bringing in the tax payers of Wisconsin though was rather amusing. Also the UW administration would much rather see me running 2 teams totaling 60 players than one virtual varsity team. I’ve had the discussion with them so I know.

Speaking from experience, both styles of play are great. Lets not get away from the main goal of just playing lacrosse and being grateful to be given the opportunity. Coaches I apologize for any slights someone from my organization may have posted. They don’t speak for all of us and definitely not Hal. He doesn’t insult people, he just gets a little antsy during games as anyone who’s seen him will know. I’ve always welcomed good competition, and I hope none of the posts made by some others will tarnish the prospects of Wisconsin playing good USLIA teams (under NCAA rules).

Yeah this is a really long post and I’m going to end it even though I didn’t address a lot of the comments. If anyone has any questions or comments, let me know and I’ll give you an answer. No one else from my team should be posting anymore so direct everything to me.

Oaks- I finally posted. Were you waiting to see if I’d do it? See you in a few weeks.


PS. To be honest I was assuming we were playing with the four long pole limit in the tournament until I went out for the opening coin toss and was told it was unlimited. I like playing with four because I get to play more defense, though I still played man down anyway.

[Kevin Boyle]

Regarding the Administrators you've talked to: I'd bet the the best case for running a different kind of program at UW has yet to be put forward.

Regarding the taxpayer thing: I first brought that up in jest... andto high-light that there's more than a just a handful of UW undergrads who are stakeholders in the UW lacrosse program. But, the more I think about it, it's a pretty legit point. You have been given the permission to represent both your university and the state that funds it. I don't think that's something to be taken lightly.

I'm glad you were amused.

[Danny Hogan]

I hope none of the posts made by some others will tarnish the prospects of Wisconsin playing good USLIA teams (under NCAA rules).

why not do it all the time in the league MAAAAAN???

[Jolly Roger]

PS. To be honest I was assuming we were playing with the four long pole limit in the tournament until I went out for the opening coin toss and was told it was unlimited.

This the kind of late or unspoken rule variation is one thing that frustrates teams going to play in Madison.

[OAKS]

Oaks- I finally posted. Were you waiting to see if I’d do it? See you in a few weeks.

I didn't want to post on this thread because there's too much personal and anecdotal attacks rather than a sensible debate. I've met a few of the UW guys -- the ones i've met have been classy guys and they definitely know how to have a good time. Mike's definitely a great guy and you'll hear this from me, the GT coaches, and players who have played with him. He knows what he's talking about .

As for having 60 guys with people who want to play MDIA vs. club, maybe the solution is to have one team for each? Especially with the growth of HS lax in Wisconsin, you'll be getting more and more kids. It might split up the cameraderie and other team bonds, but having one team for kids who want a MDIA experience and another for grad students or other players who want a club experience might solve some of these problems.

[Sonny]

Thanks for posting Badger35. I appreciate your insights. A few thoughts from my keyboard.

Right now “our team” consists of an A and a B team comprising 60 or so players. If we were going to go USLIA we would have to cut that down to around 35 at most so that would be 25 no votes right there. Then there are a bunch of guys (namely our best east coasters, all of who are undergrads to stem that debate) who would quit and thus vote no to joining. I’m sure there are people at this school that would rather play a virtual varsity style but they are in the minority, as are the people at schools like GT that would rather play more of a club style (Oaks you know who I’m talking about).

UW is hardly unique in this regard. As the MDIA has more then tripled in size over the last 8 seasons, many schools have had to deal with these same exact issues as they transition from a traditional club to a virtual-varsity style collegiate lacrosse club. It is a culture change and it appears from afar that a few folks are fighting it very hard. However it is possible at UW.

The "bunch of guys" you may lose in the short term would be more then replaced by countless other undergraduates on your campus searching for a more structured environment & team, not to mention the better competition playing against "name" schools at the MDIA level. This also doesn't even begin to mention the possibility of top-notch players that might transfer to UW to play lacrosse and continue their education at another fine university.

Look at MDIA teams like Florida State, Michigan, Michigan State, Texas, Texas A&M, Virginia Tech, Colorado State, Cal, UCSB, Arizona, Utah, etc. (Just to name a few.) They all carry large, sizable rosters stocked with talented players (most of which played lax previously). Many MDIA teams have to run tryouts each Fall and cut players to get under 40 - 50 players for the spring season.

If you are worried that players would quit and your roster numbers would drop, that clearly wouldn't be the case. There would be plenty of talent kids to fill the void. If you are worried that current players would vote no just to keep the status quo, then (in my opinion) they are probably voting in a selfish manner. The 25 folks that would vote no to keep the status quo could keep playing lacrosse elsewhere for the local men's club like MadCow. Some schools even offer intramural lacrosse these days.

I would also argue (and I've made this point in the past) that participation (and/or membership) in a collegiate sports club does NOT equate to playing time on the field. There are many different roles one can play within a sports club - player, coach, team manager, admin, fundraiser, etc. "Supposedly denying grad students a chance to play" at the MDIA level is a non-issue in my book and most of them are acting in a selfish manner if they argue otherwise.

Sure the UW lacrosse club has to be "open" to all parties (undergraduate, graduate, faculty/staff) on campus, but that doesn't mean they couldn't voluntarily elect to restrict playing time to full-time undergraduates if they joined the MDIA.

Also the UW administration would much rather see me running 2 teams totaling 60 players than one virtual varsity team. I’ve had the discussion with them so I know.

I'm also sure that in the day & age of countless lawsuits and liability concerns, the UW administration would encourage a lacrosse club that managed themselves in a more professional manner without a keg on the sideline or teams drinking on the fields. The UW administration is either naive or ignorant if they choose to not deal with this issue.

I resign the soapbox.