Any interesting situations to report/discuss from

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Any interesting situations to report/discuss from

Postby Sonny on Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:33 pm

this weekend's games? (No team names, to protect the innocent please!)
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Postby TexOle on Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:44 am

I had a coach call for a five second violation.

It was a goalie in the crease, but the goalie did not have possession so no issue.
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Postby scooter on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:51 am

2 concussions, a broken wrist/rib (i couldn't see what he was holding) and 2 illegal crosses...all in the same game.
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Postby LaxRef on Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:03 am

First game last year: 12 minutes of stick penalties.

First game of this year: 1 minute of stick penalties.

Nothing too crazy in the game, although this one is a good review:

A1 has possession and has a technical foul committed against him (e.g., push, hold) by B1, flag down. He brings the ball into the attack area and has it checked out of his stick. While the ball is still loose in the attack area (NCAA rules, so play continues), A2 slashes B2.

Who serves for how long, where is the restart, and who gets possession?
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Postby Dan Wishengrad on Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:33 am

LaxRef wrote:A1 has possession and has a technical foul committed against him (e.g., push, hold) by B1, flag down. He brings the ball into the attack area and has it checked out of his stick. While the ball is still loose in the attack area (NCAA rules, so play continues), A2 slashes B2.

Who serves for how long, where is the restart, and who gets possession?


B1 serves 30 seconds non-releasable. A2 serves a minute, the first 30 seconds are non-releasable. B gets possession at the midfield X for less time served.

Right?
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Postby Sonny on Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 am

Dan Wishengrad wrote:
LaxRef wrote:A1 has possession and has a technical foul committed against him (e.g., push, hold) by B1, flag down. He brings the ball into the attack area and has it checked out of his stick. While the ball is still loose in the attack area (NCAA rules, so play continues), A2 slashes B2.

Who serves for how long, where is the restart, and who gets possession?


B1 serves 30 seconds non-releasable. A2 serves a minute, the first 30 seconds are non-releasable. B gets possession at the midfield X for less time served.

Right?


Agree with Wish here. Simultaneous Fouls. B gets ball due to less time served. First 30 sec. is locked in.
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Postby LaxRef on Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:33 am

Dan Wishengrad wrote:
LaxRef wrote:A1 has possession and has a technical foul committed against him (e.g., push, hold) by B1, flag down. He brings the ball into the attack area and has it checked out of his stick. While the ball is still loose in the attack area (NCAA rules, so play continues), A2 slashes B2.

Who serves for how long, where is the restart, and who gets possession?


B1 serves 30 seconds non-releasable. A2 serves a minute, the first 30 seconds are non-releasable. B gets possession at the midfield X for less time served.

Right?


Close! No free clear here: for live-ball simultaneous fouls, ball gets put in play at the spot of the foul or outside the attack area.
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Postby laxfan25 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:55 am

I saw the question and said "I know that!" Slowly the enigma of simultaneous fouls reveals itself...
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Postby Sonny on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:09 am

laxfan25 wrote:I saw the question and said "I know that!" Slowly the enigma of simultaneous fouls reveals itself...


That raises another problem I've always had.... How do you explain the concept of simultaneous fouls to a new referee? Any tips from you experienced guys?

I gotta admit, I've been doing this for 15 years now and it is still a difficult concept to understand - or even explain to someone else.
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Postby byualum on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 am

LaxRef wrote:First game last year: 12 minutes of stick penalties.

First game of this year: 1 minute of stick penalties.



I sat through nearly six quarters of an Air Force/Denver scrimmage on Saturday...30+ plus goals. Not one stick penalty.
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Postby laxfan25 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:26 am

Sonny wrote:
laxfan25 wrote:I saw the question and said "I know that!" Slowly the enigma of simultaneous fouls reveals itself...


That raises another problem I've always had.... How do you explain the concept of simultaneous fouls to a new referee? Any tips from you experienced guys?

I gotta admit, I've been doing this for 15 years now and it is still a difficult concept to understand - or even explain to someone else.


I think it's one of those things with a very new ref that you don't bother spending a lot of time on. It happens very infrequently, and you're better off getting them in synch with the stuff that happens on every play (pushes, what to actaully call as a slash) than to clutter up their mind with "live ball/dead ball" and such. Even if in the rare instance where it does occur and they assess it wrong (maybe give a free clear in this instance) very, very few people are even going to know the difference!
Kinda like with my new refs that are only going to be doing middle school at the start - I tell them to don't bother trying to remember "Play on!" - just blow the whistle and get the ball in someone's stick and carry on.
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Postby LaxRef on Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:34 pm

laxfan25 wrote:
Sonny wrote:
laxfan25 wrote:I saw the question and said "I know that!" Slowly the enigma of simultaneous fouls reveals itself...


That raises another problem I've always had.... How do you explain the concept of simultaneous fouls to a new referee? Any tips from you experienced guys?

I gotta admit, I've been doing this for 15 years now and it is still a difficult concept to understand - or even explain to someone else.


I think it's one of those things with a very new ref that you don't bother spending a lot of time on. It happens very infrequently, and you're better off getting them in synch with the stuff that happens on every play (pushes, what to actaully call as a slash) than to clutter up their mind with "live ball/dead ball" and such. Even if in the rare instance where it does occur and they assess it wrong (maybe give a free clear in this instance) very, very few people are even going to know the difference!
Kinda like with my new refs that are only going to be doing middle school at the start - I tell them to don't bother trying to remember "Play on!" - just blow the whistle and get the ball in someone's stick and carry on.


I agree with LF25 here. In fact, play on and simul. fouls are not even part of the Level 1 training curriculum for that reason.

Few coaches understand simul. fouls, so few will know when it gets screwed up, and it doesn't make that big a difference if it does get screwed up once in a while (although officials who have been doing the game for a few years should be trying to get these calls right).

I intend to write a Stripes article about this soon, probably next issue.

One of the problems is that the wording for simul. fouls in the rulebook was so screwed up for so long that it's no wonder people got confused. It used to say:

2002 NCAA Rule 7-6 wrote:Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during a live ball or a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.


That makes it sound like the "when sequence cannot be determined" applies to both the live ball and dead ball parts. I got them to change it to:

2008 NCAA Rule 7-6 wrote:6. Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during (1) a live ball; or (2) a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.


which makes the intent clearer. Also, simul. fouls are sometimes counterintuitive. Most officials get this call wrong:

A.R. 17. During a loose ball, B1 pushes A1 from behind and a play-on is called. While the ball is still live, A1 turns and slashes B1. RULING: These are simultaneous fouls. Since Team A was entitled to possession, all players involved serve penalty time. B1 serves 30 seconds and A1 serves one minute, with the first 30 seconds of each penalty being nonreleasable


It seems wrong at first to make B1 serve for the loose-ball push, but if you don't then B1 goes completely unpunished for the push (his team would be man-up for a minute and have possession). In fact, who knows if A1 would have even slashed B1 if B1 hadn't pushed him? Doing it this way makes sure both teams are punished for their fouls, with Team A being punished more severely for the more severe foul.
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Postby Sonny on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:08 pm

6. Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during (1) a live ball; or (2) a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.


That was an excellent change LaxRef.
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Postby Dan Wishengrad on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:40 pm

I'm confused about where you say the ball should be awarded. I don't believe I have ever seen a situation where a team is awarded the ball after a time-serving foul has been assessed to their opponents and that team is still made to clear the ball from it's own defensive end of the field.

Are you certain about this?

EDIT: Never Mind!!! I see the exception to Rule 6-3 in the 2008 Rules. I guess I need to go back to studying the rules more carefully, as I did when I was reffing. Now that I am retired I'll admit I just review the new rule changes each year.
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Postby laxfan25 on Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:22 am

I had a recent MCLA-level game, and I thought I knew the rules and mechanics for this season, but seem to be mistaken on several issues.

1) I thought that we were supposed to be conducting six stick checks per team per game, and that we should do them earlier in the game, rather than later. We conducted four checks in the first half, which I thought was acceptable.
One of the coaches said - "I've never SEEN so many stick checks in a game!!" I asked him how many we are supposed to do in a college game - but he didn't answer -instead saying "You don't have to go by the rulebook." I couldn't tell, but I wonder if the fact that 3 of the 4 checks turned up 3 minute NR illegal stick penalties on his team was influencing his recollection on the rules?
How many stick checks are you having in your games?

2) On one of these stick checks we grabbed the stick from the player that had just scored. He didn't pull the strings first, and in going through the check procedure the ball didn't come out when rotated to 90 degrees. I thought that this was a 3 min non-releasable and assessed it as such.
The coach corrected me, saying that "on an automatic stick check that if you take a goal off the board that it is only a one minute penalty".
I was a little confused, since I had never heard of an "automatic stick check", or that if a goal was disallowed that the most you could be penalized would be a minute.
I seem to recollect that a COC memo came out this spring saying that if we had a situation where a scorer pulled his strings before being called for a stick check that we were to assess a 1 min NR USC and take the goal off the board, but to do no further checks in that instance. However, it was my understanding that if we then proceeded with the stick check and the stick was illegal for anything beyond a deep pocket (1 min. NR and the stick can be repaired, although the goal is lost) that it was a 3 min. non-releaseable and the goal is taken away. Was I wrong again?

3) As we were restarting the game after this stick penalty, the coach called for a double-horn to question the application of the rule. I could have sworn that the request for a double-horn was in the high-school rulebook only - am I mistaken yet again? The same coach has also officiated in the past, so he must know the rules very well - no?

So with 9 minutes of non-releasable penalties for illegal sticks, another 3 minute NR for an ejection foul on the other team and 1 min. NR unsportsmanlike penalties on each coach - is 18.5 minutes of other penalty time that unreasonable?
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