two rule clarifications, por favor

[woulax23]

In our game this weekend we had a situation where the opposing offense needed to keep the ball in the box as they were up in the last two minutes of the game. One of our defenders stripped their offensive player of the ball and then after a brief scrum the defender kicked the ball out of the box, but it also happened to roll out of bounds. Should that have been the defense's ball or the offense's????? We were told by the refs that the loose ball meant there was no possession so when it left the box there was no possession and the offense didn't take the possession outside of the box, so they gave the ball back to the offense. if this is accurate does that mean that if the ball had rolled out of the box with no one having possession and an offensive player had kicked, or flicked with his crosse, the ball back into the box there would have been no stoppage of play since the offense never possessed the ball outside of the box?

As if that weren't enough of a debate here is my other query: What are teh exact rulings on protection of the goalie in the crease? If he has one foot in can he be played? If he is raking a loose ball outside of the crease back into the crease can his stick be played? If he is raking a ball inside of the crease closer towards himself can his stick be played? Finally, is it legal to simply lay your stick behind the head of the goalie's crosse as he is raking the ball to keep him from completing this act? I hope that isn't too overwhelming for all of you, thanks in advance for accurate, true responses and not educated guessing

[LaxRef]

In our game this weekend we had a situation where the opposing offense needed to keep the ball in the box as they were up in the last two minutes of the game. One of our defenders stripped their offensive player of the ball and then after a brief scrum the defender kicked the ball out of the box, but it also happened to roll out of bounds. Should that have been the defense's ball or the offense's????? We were told by the refs that the loose ball meant there was no possession so when it left the box there was no possession and the offense didn't take the possession outside of the box, so they gave the ball back to the offense. if this is accurate does that mean that if the ball had rolled out of the box with no one having possession and an offensive player had kicked, or flicked with his crosse, the ball back into the box there would have been no stoppage of play since the offense never possessed the ball outside of the box?

This rule will likely be tweaked next year. The rulebook says that is the ball goes out of the attack area other than on a shot or a deflected pass by the defense and then the offense touches the ball before the defense gains possession it is a stall. A COC bulleting changed this to "a defelction by the defense," so in this case I thnk the officials made the correct call.

In the latter situations, with the offense trying to kick or knock the ball back in, that would be a stalling violation unless the ball came out as a result of a shot or a deflection by the defense (in which case either team could recover.)

As if that weren't enough of a debate here is my other query: What are teh exact rulings on protection of the goalie in the crease? If he has one foot in can he be played? If he is raking a loose ball outside of the crease back into the crease can his stick be played? If he is raking a ball inside of the crease closer towards himself can his stick be played? Finally, is it legal to simply lay your stick behind the head of the goalie's crosse as he is raking the ball to keep him from completing this act? I hope that isn't too overwhelming for all of you, thanks in advance for accurate, true responses and not educated guessing

Rather than write this all up, here are the words of a colleague from another forum:

Goalkeeper Interference

Here it is in a handy dandy table that outlines when you can and cannot hit the GK or his crosse.

1. GK possession and ANY body part in the crease-
No contact with GK body OR his stick, even if the stick or another body part lies outside the crease circle. Violation: Free Clear for defense.

2. GK possession and NO body part in the crease-
You can check his body AND stick. Treat him as a field player because he has left the protection of the crease. Violation: Same as a field player.

3. No GK possession and ANY body part in the crease-
You can hit the part of the stick extended OUTSIDE the crease, but not the body (because it's still in the crease) so long as he is within 5 yards of a loose ball (the same five yard rule applies to field players as well). Violation: Ball awarded to defense 20 yards lateral to the goal.

4. No GK possession and NO body part in the crease-
You can whack his body AND stick (he is now a regular field player having left the protection of the crease) so long as he is within 5 yards of a loose ball. If there is POSSESSION by any field player of either team, the GK gets the same protection as any field player and thus cannot be hit because he is not within 5 yards of a loose ball, nor does he have possession. Violation: Same as a field player.


NOTE: The GK with the ball trapped under his crosse is NOT in possession (referred to as a "trap" or a "tennis pick up"). If his body is inside and the crosse is OUTSIDE the crease, the part of the crosse extending OUTSIDE the crease is fair game because he does not have possession (he's merely trapping the ball). If he has the ball trapped under his stick INSIDE the crease, it still is NOT possession, but you may not hit his stick because the stick is INSIDE the crease.

I plan on tackling these issues in a "Beginner's Corner" in a future issue of Stripes.

[woulax23]

thanks for the clarification, i guess i should have searched the forums a little before posting this..... my bad

[laxfan25]

thanks for the clarification, i guess i should have searched the forums a little before posting this..... my bad

Don't feel bad, the forum he referred to isn't on collegelax.us.
Your questions were good, and goalie/crease play is one often-misunderstood area of the game. One of the biggest is that goalies with the ball clamped outside the crease will complain when their sticks are checked. Laying your stick behind his (as long as your's isn't in the crease - contact then would be a violation) as he rakes is a smart move, as is sweeping under his crosse from back to front to knock the ball out is also a good move. Just keep it outside the crease and without goalie possession.

[LaxRef]

thanks for the clarification, i guess i should have searched the forums a little before posting this..... my bad

Don't feel bad, the forum he referred to isn't on collegelax.us.
Your questions were good, and goalie/crease play is one often-misunderstood area of the game. One of the biggest is that goalies with the ball clamped outside the crease will complain when their sticks are checked. Laying your stick behind his (as long as your's isn't in the crease - contact then would be a violation) as he rakes is a smart move, as is sweeping under his crosse from back to front to knock the ball out is also a good move. Just keep it outside the crease and without goalie possession.

This A.R. seems to indicate that there is no interference if the goalie initiates the contact in the crease:

A.R. 80. Loose ball in the crease. A1 covers the ball to rake it back. Goalkeeper checks A1’s crosse. RULING: No interference.

[Danny Hogan]

ok...

loose ball in the crease behind the cage Attackman A goes for the scoop, Goalie B comes around and checks his stick before he has posession.

Interference on Attackman A?

[laxfan25]

ok...

loose ball in the crease behind the cage Attackman A goes for the scoop, Goalie B comes around and checks his stick before he has posession.

Interference on Attackman A?

No, not if the goalie checked his stick while A was going to play the ball. However, once the goalie is on the scene and is going for the ball himself (after checking the attack stick) now the attackman has to withdraw, he can't continue to fight for the ball.

[LaxRef]

ok...

loose ball in the crease behind the cage Attackman A goes for the scoop, Goalie B comes around and checks his stick before he has posession.

Interference on Attackman A?

No. Look at A.R. 80 above.

However, in most cases where there's fighting for the ball, it's hard to say that the goalie is initiating all of the contact and the attackman is completely innocent. In your situation, A1 is trying to scoop and GK B1 checks his stick: no interference. But if there are multiple contacts, the benefit of the doubt is going to go to the GK and it will be called interference.

[laxfan25]

thanks for the clarification, i guess i should have searched the forums a little before posting this..... my bad

Don't feel bad, the forum he referred to isn't on collegelax.us.
Your questions were good, and goalie/crease play is one often-misunderstood area of the game. One of the biggest is that goalies with the ball clamped outside the crease will complain when their sticks are checked. Laying your stick behind his (as long as your's isn't in the crease - contact then would be a violation) as he rakes is a smart move, as is sweeping under his crosse from back to front to knock the ball out is also a good move. Just keep it outside the crease and without goalie possession.

This A.R. seems to indicate that there is no interference if the goalie initiates the contact in the crease:

A.R. 80. Loose ball in the crease. A1 covers the ball to rake it back. Goalkeeper checks A1’s crosse. RULING: No interference.

However, in that A.R. the attack has the ball clamped and is going to rake. In our example we're saying the goalie has the ball clamped and is about to rake. Big difference there, and the location of the ball and sticks is key to getting the call correct.

[LaxRef]

thanks for the clarification, i guess i should have searched the forums a little before posting this..... my bad

Don't feel bad, the forum he referred to isn't on collegelax.us.
Your questions were good, and goalie/crease play is one often-misunderstood area of the game. One of the biggest is that goalies with the ball clamped outside the crease will complain when their sticks are checked. Laying your stick behind his (as long as your's isn't in the crease - contact then would be a violation) as he rakes is a smart move, as is sweeping under his crosse from back to front to knock the ball out is also a good move. Just keep it outside the crease and without goalie possession.

This A.R. seems to indicate that there is no interference if the goalie initiates the contact in the crease:

A.R. 80. Loose ball in the crease. A1 covers the ball to rake it back. Goalkeeper checks A1’s crosse. RULING: No interference.

However, in that A.R. the attack has the ball clamped and is going to rake. In our example we're saying the goalie has the ball clamped and is about to rake. Big difference there, and the location of the ball and sticks is key to getting the call correct.

Well, this just highlights the problem with having a casebook instead of a rule book. It seems clear—to me at least—that the implication is that if the GK initiates the contact it is not a foul. After all, we have to make inferences from many of these A.R.s to cover situations not explicitly covered. Let me put it this way: if attackman A1 did not have the ball clamped but had his crosse inside the crease in an attempt to play a loose ball and GK B1 checked A1's crosse inside the cylinder, would you call interference on A1? I sure hope not, but the A.R. doesn't specifically address this case since the ball isn't clamped.

[woulax23]

this little debate is why i posted this question. Goalies are so misinformed on when they can and can not be played that if they look up and yell interference at the refs then a lot of the time the ref will call it automatically to protect the keeper. Would it be wise to approach the refs before the game and clarify this before the game starts or do you think that the refs would be opposed to changing their view point if i talked to them? It is a big advantage to be able to play the goalie's stick when he has trapped the ball, but i would hate to give up a free clear if the refs were confused on the rulings.

[LaxRef]

this little debate is why i posted this question. Goalies are so misinformed on when they can and can not be played that if they look up and yell interference at the refs then a lot of the time the ref will call it automatically to protect the keeper. Would it be wise to approach the refs before the game and clarify this before the game starts or do you think that the refs would be opposed to changing their view point if i talked to them? It is a big advantage to be able to play the goalie's stick when he has trapped the ball, but i would hate to give up a free clear if the refs were confused on the rulings.

This is a touchy situation. Most officials will not take kindly to a player coming up before the game to "educate" them about the rules. The officials who know really know the rules will be annoyed—imagine if an official walked over to you before the game to try to teach you basic cradling!—and the officials who don't know the rules probably aren't going to call the game any differently because you talked to them.

What you can do is ask a respectful question before he game, like "If the goalie has the ball clamped outside the crease, can I check the part of his stick which is outside of the crease?" If the official says "yes," then that's great. If he says "no," then maybe you tell your coach and your coach can show him the A.R. that says you can.

It's shaky ground, though, because most officials know the rules so much better than the coaches and players that we get tired of hearing ridiculous rules misconceptions shouted at us with the utmost conviction. I will never understand how someone who has never even picked up a rulebook could possibly be so sure they knew the rules better than someone who has had to take and pass a rules test every year for 10 years or more. The rules are so riddled with special cases and exceptions that I submit that it would be impossible to learn the rules simply by playing and watching, which is why forums like this one are so helpful.

However, if you really want to learn the rules, you need to pick up a rulebook and study it.