Delayed Substitution

Discuss the rules of the game & the world of officiating.

Delayed Substitution

Postby laxfan25 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:15 pm

A question arose concerning delayed substitutions.
Here is the pertinent part of the Special Substitution rule;

Special Substitution
SECTION 23. Substitution may take place without the necessity of waiting for suspension of play by an official. One player at a time may enter the field of play from the special substitution area under the following conditions:...
d. The substitute must wait until such player is off the field of play, and the substitute may not delay his entry onto the field.
A.R. 109. During a special substitution, A1 delays his entrance onto the field. The trailing official sees the delay. RULING: Silent play on with an officials arm in the air unless A1 participates in the play, technical foul. This does not remove the responsibility of a team to adhere to the offsides rule.


This is designed to prevent players from delaying their entry onto the field to gain an advantage. With the frequent positional substitutions in the college game, this would stop a LSM from exiting the field and having the short-stick delay, and then pop onto the field to take a clearing pass. Conversely, a defensive sub delaying his entry and then delivering a body check would be a no-no.
In the first instance it would be a turnover, in the second, a 30 sec. TF if the other team has possession. If the player doesn't get involved in an imminent play, the play-on is waved off.

Just to add to the confusion, they have this A.R. all by its lonesome self under Unsportsmanlike Conduct;
A.R. 24. Team A hides its 10th man in the penalty-box area for the purpose of slipping him into the game during Team A’s clearing attempt. RULING: Personal foul, unsportsmanlike conduct.

I would think that most officials would go with the lesser penalty and reserve the USC for repeated violations, It does create another grey area that should be addressed.
Last edited by laxfan25 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
laxfan25
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:06 pm


Postby grinderpete on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:25 pm

I had a team last week that would have a guy step onto the field 1 step and would stand there for about a minute while they passed the ball around, then would send him sprinting to the goal. If they hadn't beat us by 14, i would have laughed.
User avatar
grinderpete
All-Conference
All-Conference
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:56 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Postby LaxRef on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:54 pm

Middie A1 stays on his defensive side of midfield, along with two defensemen and a GK, as team A plays offense with 5 players. Eventually, defenseman A2 steps onto the field and A1 sprints across midfield—he can do this now without being offsides—catches a pass, shoots, and scores. Ruling?
-LaxRef
User avatar
LaxRef
All-America
All-America
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 7:18 am

Postby laxfan25 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:26 pm

LaxRef wrote:Middie A1 stays on his defensive side of midfield, along with two defensemen and a GK, as team A plays offense with 5 players. Eventually, defenseman A2 steps onto the field and A1 sprints across midfield—he can do this now without being offsides—catches a pass, shoots, and scores. Ruling?


I guess you would have to consider whether A2 took an unreasonable amount of time to get on the field, in which case I would probably call IP - illegal substitution. Otherwise, without the delay this is a fairly common substitution pattern, lets the man get into the attack play quicker.
User avatar
laxfan25
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Postby LaxRef on Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:29 pm

laxfan25 wrote:
LaxRef wrote:Middie A1 stays on his defensive side of midfield, along with two defensemen and a GK, as team A plays offense with 5 players. Eventually, defenseman A2 steps onto the field and A1 sprints across midfield—he can do this now without being offsides—catches a pass, shoots, and scores. Ruling?


I guess you would have to consider whether A2 took an unreasonable amount of time to get on the field, in which case I would probably call IP - illegal substitution. Otherwise, without the delay this is a fairly common substitution pattern, lets the man get into the attack play quicker.


I meant to say that A2 is hiding in the box until an opportune moment. But at one meeting or another that I went to—I can't recall where, it might have even been an online discussion—people were adamant that you can't call IP because A2 didn't get involved in the play directly. The correct answer: I don't know. Maybe tell the coach that he has his choice of IP or USC?
-LaxRef
User avatar
LaxRef
All-America
All-America
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 7:18 am

Postby laxfan25 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:41 pm

I was making a stretch, since one of the conditions under illegal procedure is violation of any of the substitution rules described in 4.22.
4.22 covers regular substitution. 4.23 is special substitution, but who's going to quibble.
I would only consider this if it appeared to be a deliberate act, we've all seen the fire-drill when teams realize that they are inadvertantly short-staffed!
User avatar
laxfan25
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Postby Dulax31 on Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:37 am

Help me out guys.

Team B has the ball man up on their offensive side of the field.

Team A subs an attackman off the field, but forgets to sub a new attackmen on the field for over 20 seconds. Team A has only 2 attackmen on their offensive side, but this doesn't give them any kind of advantage. Should a flag be throw against Team A for being offsides?
Chris Fleck
Duluth Lacrosse Alumni
Jolly Roger Lacrosse
User avatar
Dulax31
All-Conference
All-Conference
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:59 am

Postby laxfan25 on Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:04 pm

I guess if I was the trail I might be looking at the bench area to see what's happening. Are they scrambling for a guy/ Are they oblivious to the fact that they need to get a body out there?
As long as there is no advantage gained, I'm likely going to pass on a flag.
Now, if Team A gets the ball on defense, the reluctant attackman now steps on the field and takes a clearing pass - that would be a turnover at least.
User avatar
laxfan25
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
Scoop, Cradle, & Rock!
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Postby shrekjr on Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:50 pm

Team A subs an attackman off the field, but forgets to sub a new attackmen on the field for over 20 seconds. Team A has only 2 attackmen on their offensive side, but this doesn't give them any kind of advantage. Should a flag be throw against Team A for being offsides?


Somewhat heated discussion in Vail when this situation occured during the last minute of a 1-point championship game. The flag was thrown against the team with the lead after it was apparent no substitute was coming onto the field. The crew chief waved off the flag and all heck broke loose on the sideline.

The powers that be who were at the tournament (who also happened to be the crew chief) said if you have six attackmen playing against six defenders (not counting the goalie), you do NOT have offsides and the trail shouldn't even be looking for it. That is a lot easier to explain or ignore if the flag hasn't already been thrown!
User avatar
shrekjr
Old ugly deaf blind ref
Old ugly deaf blind ref
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Texas

Postby Sonny on Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:56 pm

laxfan25 wrote:I guess if I was the trail I might be looking at the bench area to see what's happening. Are they scrambling for a guy/ Are they oblivious to the fact that they need to get a body out there?
As long as there is no advantage gained, I'm likely going to pass on a flag.
Now, if Team A gets the ball on defense, the reluctant attackman now steps on the field and takes a clearing pass - that would be a turnover at least.


Agreed. It's a no call and you should probably use preventing officiating here as no real advantage has been gained.

If you have a 3-man game, the trail official should recognize this before hustling out of the substitution box to take his position and warn the offending team to get someone on the opposite side of the midfield line (i.e 3rd attackman).

If the team doesn't comply after a warning, you could flag them. But I imagine that 99.9% of the teams will have some step onto the field.

An official looking to through a flag in this situation is "looking" for trouble...
Webmaster
Image
Image
User avatar
Sonny
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8183
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Jolly Roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:08 am

Sonny wrote: An official looking to through a flag in this situation is "looking" for trouble...


An official/web-guru/newlywed who spells like this......

:wink: :twisted: :wink: Gotta bust ya on this one, matey!
ARRRRG!!!!!! Everyone enjoys a good Rogering!
User avatar
Jolly Roger
Pirate Supreme
Pirate Supreme
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:07 pm
Location: Your worst maritime nightmares

Postby Sonny on Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:15 am

I blame fat fingers. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Webmaster
Image
Image
User avatar
Sonny
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8183
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Jay Wisnieski on Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:28 am

Sonny wrote:Agreed. It's a no call and you should probably use preventing officiating here as no real advantage has been gained.

An official looking to through a flag in this situation is "looking" for trouble...


Well, the refs that we see must be looking for trouble then, because I've had it called on my team before.

I'll even link to the post where I asked a question about almost this very same situation:
http://forums.uslia.com/viewtopic.php?t=2589
Jay Wisnieski
University of South Dakota Lacrosse
Head Coach
User avatar
Jay Wisnieski
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:12 am
Location: Sioux City, IA

Postby shrekjr on Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:17 am

This is another one of those rules that if the coaches don't want it enforced, then why is it in the rulebook? It is becoming increasing difficult not only in lacrosse, but in all sports, to determine which rules to overlook when they occur and when to apply them. It would sure be a lot easier if you could enforce every rule. I've been officiating multiple sports for over 30 years so I completely understand that everything in the book doesn't always get called. But our jobs would be much easier if we did call it all! Of course, no matter the rule, the coaches always want it called when it is against the other team.
User avatar
shrekjr
Old ugly deaf blind ref
Old ugly deaf blind ref
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Texas

Postby SDSULAX on Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:33 pm

Could I please get a copy or list of all of the written rules that are not enforced? And could someone explain to me where the authority comes from for the officials on the field to determine which rules they get to enforce and which rules they get to ignore? Thanks
Craig Miller
General Manager San Diego State University Men's Lacrosse
Vice President WCLL
Director MCLA
Moderator WCLL Forum
User avatar
SDSULAX
Premium
Premium
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:10 pm
Location: San Diego, California

Next

Return to Lacrosse Rules & Officiating

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests


cron