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Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:44 pm**

Courtesy NCAA.org

Committee Proposes Rule Changes

Aug. 23, 2005

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Men's Lacrosse Rules Committee proposed a slightly altered faceoff mechanic and added a slow whistle during foul situations at its annual meeting, held August 8-11, in Indianapolis. All proposals must be approved by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel in September.

After changing the procedure last year to spread out the players facing off, the committee decided to eliminate the requirement that the referee audibly say "set" prior to blowing the whistle. There were numerous violations this season in the faceoff procedure and a large number were attributed to players anticipating the whistle.

"We believe we were putting our officials in a tough spot in some ways," said Willie Scroggs, chair of the committee and senior associate athletics director at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. "The committee hopes this will improve the consistency and fairness of the faceoff."

A main topic of discussion last year was the rules regarding timeouts. The committee discussed several options in this area, but decided its rule - which was altered last year to require the team calling the timeout to have possession in the attack zone - met the intended objectives.

"We wanted to make the timeout call easier for officials and we wanted to make sure the team calling the timeout had clear possession of the ball," Scroggs said. "We discussed many options and ideas. In the end, we feel our rule accomplishes what we are looking for."

A new rule for the upcoming season was added after the committee allowed experimentation with it last season. During a situation in which a flag is down for a foul, the non-offending team will be allowed to establish possession in the attack area and attempt to score. To ward against additional fouling by the team with the delayed penalty, the committee added that, in this situation, any additional foul against that team will be time serving.

"We had favorable feedback from last year with this rule and really feel like it will add an exciting feature to our game," Scroggs said. "This gives the offensive team a real advantage and encourages them to create action around the goal."

The dimensions of the stick and crosse also were discussed at length. With the innovations over the past few decades, the committee feels more specific dimensions are necessary to keep the equipment in line with the traditions of the game. The committee passed several new measurements that will go into effect starting with the 2008 season to give manufacturers and institutions time to adjust to the more stringent standards.

A full listing of the committee's changes, once approved by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel, will be sent to each institution and posted on the NCAA Web site.

Other changes:

--The committee altered its rule concerning when a player crosses the center line to be consistent with all other lines on the field. Now, if a player touches the center line with his foot, he is considered across the center line.

--The committee passed an experimental rule for the fall season with an eye on a potential change for 2006-07. In the experimental rule, a team has 30 seconds from the time possession is gained to advance the ball into the attack area. The team must keep the ball in the attack area and substitutions may only be made until the ball enters the attack area.

"The committee is looking to speed up the game and create more action," Scroggs said. "We also feel like substitution patterns may be getting to be too much of our game and speeding up that process, we feel, would be a positive step. We hope teams will experiment with this in the fall season."

In this experiment, the committee also asks that teams move the attack area line five yards closer to the midline to increase the amount of offensive space.

--An approved ruling dealing with the tripping rule was altered to include the words "stumble or fall" in the explanation of the rule. The committee believes officials should call tripping regardless of whether or not the player falls to the ground.

"If a player is impeded significantly by a defending player, tripping should be called," Scroggs said. "We hope this brings attention to this and gives officials the ability to call this."

--The committee also reworded the stalling rules to more accurately reflect when this provision should be used.

LINK:
http://www.ncaasports.com/lacrosse/mens/story/8764926

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:10 pm**

So, based upon the experimental"30 Second" rule, when does college lacrosse get the "2 point line"?

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:03 pm**

Rob Graff wrote:So, based upon the experimental"30 Second" rule, when does college lacrosse get the "2 point line"?

"Experimental" 2-point line.

We've talked about this some on one of the other boards. There are definitely some questions that need to be answered. I think there's a real danger of the trail getting stuck being a "traffic cop," stuck at the sub box telling people, "You can sub. . . now you can't. . . now you can. . .oops, sorry, flag down on you."

I think I like the spirit of the rule, and it would cut down on all of the counting, but I'm not sure how it will play in practice.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:00 pm**

The 30 second rule is silly. The more difficult we make this game to understand, the harder it is going to be for the sport to gain support. I don't know why people think the game needs to be sped up. It is already such a fluid and smooth game. Watching a team manipulate the substitution box, slow the game down and speed the game up strategically, and use their knowledge of when to push is just pretty.

I know...we should make the goals three feet wider on each side and on the top. We should actually add two arches to the field, a two and three point line. Who cares about the ability to pick corners, we just want fast shots! Then we should play loud punk music over the PA system at all games, to give it more of an edge. Who knows, it may inspire the players to run and hit harder. Speaking of hitting, we should only allow people who have played football and love to hit to play lacrosse from now on. Heaven knows we need more fast paced hitting in the game, and lower the importance of stick skills.

Actually, if somebody does Mikey Powell's flip in a game, they should be awarded half a point, a full point if they flip in to the box. A defender should also score his team a half a point if he hits the flipping player before said flipping player returns to the ground. Behind the back goals should also have a higher value placed on them. Goalies should only be allowed to use regular sized heads as well, or we could just get rid of the keeper all together. I mean we want more goals in a game don't we! YEAH!!! LACROSSE!!!! SO EXTREME!!!!

Get real...leave the game as is. It's beautiful.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:16 pm**

Anonymous wrote:The 30 second rule is silly. The more difficult we make this game to understand, the harder it is going to be for the sport to gain support. I don't know why people think the game needs to be sped up. It is already such a fluid and smooth game. Watching a team manipulate the substitution box, slow the game down and speed the game up strategically, and use their knowledge of when to push is just pretty.

I find two minutes of "keep away" while teams sub every person possible before trying to set up a play to be boring. It's almost like football the way teams sub in defense for offense after each turnover. In basketball, you have to play offense and defense. In lacrosse, it used to be that midfielders had to play both offense and defense as well, and if you can only do one or the other, well, you played attack or defense. What was wrong with that?

I think that anything that can force teams to stop the endless subs is a plus. Sub all you want, just do it all in the first 30 seconds. Why not?

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:56 pm**

LaxRef wrote: I think that anything that can force teams to stop the endless subs is a plus. Sub all you want, just do it all in the first 30 seconds. Why not?

I agree that stopping the sub revolving door is a good idea, and it is obvious that our guest is someone with history in the game - loved your post!
However, I think this 30 second rule is going to cause MORE slow down, as teams dawdle outside the box making all their subs before getting down to action. I'm still not clear (as I'm sure most are not) on teh specifics and mechanics of the experiment, but they better get in-depth explanations out quickly, since fall ball will be ramping up very soon.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:43 pm**

laxfan25 wrote:
LaxRef wrote: I think that anything that can force teams to stop the endless subs is a plus. Sub all you want, just do it all in the first 30 seconds. Why not?

I agree that stopping the sub revolving door is a good idea, and it is obvious that our guest is someone with history in the game - loved your post!
However, I think this 30 second rule is going to cause MORE slow down, as teams dawdle outside the box making all their subs before getting down to action. I'm still not clear (as I'm sure most are not) on teh specifics and mechanics of the experiment, but they better get in-depth explanations out quickly, since fall ball will be ramping up very soon.

Well, my guess would be that they'd do the 20-second clear and then 10 seconds to get into the box. If you had a restart, you'd either have 30 or 10 seconds, depending on where the ball was. But it's just a guess.

As I pointed out on the other board, though, there are some real potential problems. For example, A1 has the ball in the box and then drops it. B1 picks it up and subbing is allowed. Then A1 checks the ball out of B1's stick and picks it up--still in the box--so now subbing isn't allowed. So subbing was allowed for about 4 seconds, and the guy who thought he was subbing during a clear now draws a flag for illegal sub.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:57 am**

And don't get me started on the "asks that the restraining box be moved back 5 yards" stuff. There are alot of teams that use artificial surface fields where that's going to be a problem.

Further, this is a massive change from what was done in the past. How does it get "enforced" in HS/Youth ball?

SOme thoughts/questions from a coaching perspective.

1. Pressure defenses becomes much more important - if you can gain a turnover by just forcing the player with the ball "out of the box" the rewards are too tempting. Unless your players cannot press out, the "slide/recover" defense may decrease in importance.

2. Offensive player A 1 shoots the ball, ball hits post and rebounds Out of Bounds on the SIDE (i.e. ball has had to leave the box, although not in any player's possession) - Player A 2 was closest - who gets the ball?

3. Horn substitutions are crucial - because it will become more difficult to sub, I have to take advantage of every horn. And will I only be allowed to Horn Substitution on defense? Presume the offensive team has entered the box. Presume that defense has "knocked/deflected" the ball out of bounds (not a shot). Presume that the fact that the ball HAS left the box doesn't trump the fact that defensive player has caused the ball to go out of bounds. So, it's the offensive team's ball - they've entered the box before I knocked it out - the "spirit of the rule" suggests to me that they CANNOT SUB - they've put the ball in the box, and the defense has never gained possession such that the offense is "restarting" out of the box after the other team's possession. But the defense should be able to sub - right?

4. Effectively, the prohibition of leaving the box after you've entered it should - in most situations - result in more shots, and shorter possessions.

5. Players that can handle the ball under defensive pressure become even more important. Where in the past you've needed to be able to kill the last two minutes of the game in your box, but been able to slow the pace of the game down by spreading the field during normal time, if you want to "slow" the pace of the game now - you effectively have to run your "I'm ahead by 2 with 2 minutes left" offense to do that - which requires more ball handlers.

6. Making it harder to substitute means less players see the field.

More later.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:27 am**

Who selects these clowns and who allows these clowns to vote?

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:20 pm**

oaklandlax wrote:Who selects these clowns and who allows these clowns to vote?

Towbey, let's be a little more respectful please! The rules committee chair is Willie Scroggs, head coach of North Carolina. Heard of him? Also on the NCAA committee is Jack Emmer from Army, along with several other respected D1/D3 coaches. Realize this is an experimental rule, has not been implemented, and wouldn't be until '07 at the earliest. they are experimenting with ways to speed up the game and limit the substituting that is rampant now. Whether this will be successful remains to be seen, but they are asking for it to be tried in the fall to see how it works.
Patience my friend.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:30 pm**

Rob Graff wrote: And don't get me started on the "asks that the restraining box be moved back 5 yards" stuff. There are alot of teams that use artificial surface fields where that's going to be a problem.

Further, this is a massive change from what was done in the past. How does it get "enforced" in HS/Youth ball?

I agree that the field issue will be big. There are several schools in my area with new NextTurf fields with lacrosse lines built in. Not as simple as repainting.

Rob Graff wrote:SOme thoughts/questions from a coaching perspective.
1. Pressure defenses becomes much more important - if you can gain a turnover by just forcing the player with the ball "out of the box" the rewards are too tempting. Unless your players cannot press out, the "slide/recover" defense may decrease in importance.

Agreed! Being able to use the box line as a sideline out-of-bounds is huge.

Rob Graff wrote:2. Offensive player A 1 shoots the ball, ball hits post and rebounds Out of Bounds on the SIDE (i.e. ball has had to leave the box, although not in any player's possession) - Player A 2 was closest - who gets the ball?

No change in this regard. A2 gets it. I'm sure if the ball leaves the box on a shot the A will be allowed to chase and contest, no different than the final 2 minutes have been. After all, we're trying to encourage more shots!

Rob Graff wrote:3. Horn substitutions are crucial - because it will become more difficult to sub, I have to take advantage of every horn. And will I only be allowed to Horn Substitution on defense? Presume the offensive team has entered the box. Presume that defense has "knocked/deflected" the ball out of bounds (not a shot). Presume that the fact that the ball HAS left the box doesn't trump the fact that defensive player has caused the ball to go out of bounds. So, it's the offensive team's ball - they've entered the box before I knocked it out - the "spirit of the rule" suggests to me that they CANNOT SUB - they've put the ball in the box, and the defense has never gained possession such that the offense is "restarting" out of the box after the other team's possession. But the defense should be able to sub - right?

As you say, horns will be plentiful, and I am assuming that both teams would be able to utilize the horn for subs.

Rob Graff wrote:4. Effectively, the prohibition of leaving the box after you've entered it should - in most situations - result in more shots, and shorter possessions.

Agreed.

Rob Graff wrote:5. Players that can handle the ball under defensive pressure become even more important. Where in the past you've needed to be able to kill the last two minutes of the game in your box, but been able to slow the pace of the game down by spreading the field during normal time, if you want to "slow" the pace of the game now - you effectively have to run your "I'm ahead by 2 with 2 minutes left" offense to do that - which requires more ball handlers.

Agreed. The field effectively becomes much smaller when you are on offense, which is why they want to make the box bigger.

Rob Graff wrote:6. Making it harder to substitute means less players see the field.

That would seem to be the case.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:40 pm**

oaklandlax wrote:Who selects these clowns and who allows these clowns to vote?

Time to join the circus. If you opened the first few pages of a NCAA rulebook, you could check out the entire NCAA rules committee along with their pictures/institutions.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:11 pm**

MOre thoughts/responses:

LaxRef comments:

I think that anything that can force teams to stop the endless subs is a plus. Sub all you want, just do it all in the first 30 seconds. Why not?

My respectful answer: I think that your point - do the subbing in the first 30 seconds is how we will all approach this experimental rule. And it will (unless you are prohibited from offensive subbing on horns) limit the amout of subbing after that first 30 seconds

BUT - How many subs take place after that intital "wave"? I concede that it does happen, but it doesn't happen often; and

The rule may have the effect of slowing the game down even more. I.e we'll get a save, check to see if we can get over the top, and if not, the 'substituion barrage' will begin EITHER right after we've cleared it OR if I'm not being press-rode, when the ball is in the defensive half. In effect it mandates 30 seconds of "getting everyone on the field that we want on the field, clear the ball (again, not necessarily in that order), get on the same page offensively, and then - and only then - when we are all ready (but within 30 seconds) we enter the box and a few seconds of intense action begin, as the defenders attempt to press out, and the offensive players look to dodge against pressure or do what ever they want to do.

SOme teams may choose to not press out defensively - and then you'll have 30 seconds of "prep" combined with long offensive possessions. Oohh give me more of that....

I'm open to criticism because I often criticized the "slow down" nature of present upper level lacrosse, yet when the rules committee attempts to address that issue, I attack it. My response would be that there must be other ways to encourage sped up play other than radically changing the playing field. For example - let's get rid of horn substituions. POCO club does this and the games flow better. I'm sure that we could all come up with others.

We need - as a sport - to determine if we want coaches/teams to be able to dictate tempo, or if we are going to have the rules dictate tempo. This type of rule will make it more difficult for lesser talented teams to challege more talented teams by dictating tempo. Maybe that's a good thing - reasonable minds can differ. But I know I like seeing active play, I know I like seeing intelligent play, and I like seeing two teams with differing ideas about tempo play each other.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:12 pm**

decided not to go there

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:11 pm**

Rob Graff wrote:And don't get me started on the "asks that the restraining box be moved back 5 yards" stuff. There are alot of teams that use artificial surface fields where that's going to be a problem.

That's why it's "asks" and not "requires." If they go this route, I'd expect a 3-year window for allowing teams to change their permanent fields.

Rob Graff wrote:Further, this is a massive change from what was done in the past. How does it get "enforced" in HS/Youth ball?

It doesn't; HS uses NFHS rules unless the state in questions chooses to use NCAA rules. And the NCAA doesn't give a rat's butt about that (in fact, I'd expect many states using NCAA rules for HS to ignore this rule change).

Rob Graff wrote:2. Offensive player A 1 shoots the ball, ball hits post and rebounds Out of Bounds on the SIDE (i.e. ball has had to leave the box, although not in any player's possession) - Player A 2 was closest - who gets the ball?

Clearly A2, just like in a "keep it in" situation now.

Rob Graff wrote:3. Horn substitutions are crucial - because it will become more difficult to sub, I have to take advantage of every horn. And will I only be allowed to Horn Substitution on defense? Presume the offensive team has entered the box. Presume that defense has "knocked/deflected" the ball out of bounds (not a shot). Presume that the fact that the ball HAS left the box doesn't trump the fact that defensive player has caused the ball to go out of bounds. So, it's the offensive team's ball - they've entered the box before I knocked it out - the "spirit of the rule" suggests to me that they CANNOT SUB - they've put the ball in the box, and the defense has never gained possession such that the offense is "restarting" out of the box after the other team's possession. But the defense should be able to sub - right?

I'm fairly sure they mean "live ball subs only in the first 30 seconds or until the ball is in the box." They'll let people sub as normal during dead balls, I think.

Rob Graff wrote:6. Making it harder to substitute means less players see the field.

Well, to some extent. I mean, if A1 only has 20 good minutes in him, he's only got 20 good minutes in him. You're going to get someone else in for him, just maybe not when you normally would.

LaxTV Forums | A Forum About The MCLA

NCAA Committee Proposes Lacrosse Rule Changes

NCAA Committee Proposes Lacrosse Rule Changes

What are we trying to do?

Re: What are we trying to do?

Re: What are we trying to do?

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