Regular Substitution Question After Time Serving Penalty

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Regular Substitution Question After Time Serving Penalty

Postby Sonny on Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:13 am

NFHS Rules

Team A has been assessed a time serving foul. After various substitutions for both the teams, the 20-sec buzzer sounds and Team B has
(1) Too Many Men on the Field
(2) Not Enough Men on the Field

What is the correct call in each scenario?
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Re: Regular Substitution Question After Time Serving Penalty

Postby LaxRef on Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 am

Sonny wrote:NFHS Rules

Team A has been assessed a time serving foul. After various substitutions for both the teams, the 20-sec buzzer sounds and Team B has
(1) Too Many Men on the Field
(2) Not Enough Men on the Field

What is the correct call in each scenario?


Oooh! Oooh! I know!

But I'm guessing this is a quiz and not a question of your own, so I'll hold off on answering.
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Postby shrekjr on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:46 pm

I know what we did last weekend under NCAA rules, but I'll wait too.
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Postby Andy Sharp on Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:00 pm

I know what a recent NCAA ref crew did, that I thought was questionable, I can't wait to compare on my own. Do tell.
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Postby Sonny on Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:33 pm

Lets hear your responses.....
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Postby LaxRef on Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:31 pm

Per NFHS Situation 4-22-b, illegal procedure on Team B. Award possession to Team A (since Team B is due possession as a result of the time-serving foul on Team A.)

If Team A is late, IP on Team A and the in-home serves 30 seconds since Team B was due possession.

This situation does not appear in the NCAA rule book. Obviously if a team has too many in NCAA the answer is the same. If they have too few, some officials let them play, but then you have to worry about a team gaining an advantage from a delayed sub, so I'd be a whole lot happier if the rules clarified it.
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Postby Sonny on Thu May 01, 2008 7:48 am

LaxRef wrote:If they have too few, some officials let them play, but then you have to worry about a team gaining an advantage from a delayed sub, so I'd be a whole lot happier if the rules clarified it.


That is exactly the way I've handled (advantage/disadvantage). What advantage is a team gaining when they are playing at even strength temporarily -- when they are man-up?

I was surprised to read NFHS Situation 4-22-b when reviewing that book the other day. I'm still inclined to call it like most officials do under NCAA rules.

LaxRef - I would suggest a rules change to the NFHS. Obviously if a team has too many guys after the 20 sec. buzzer sounds, it's an automatic delay and we turnover the ball to the other team.

But if the man-up team is playing temporarily with too few players, I would argue they are gaining no advantage. (Unless they pop a guy out of the box quickly and he immediately receives a pass OR hits a player on the field.)

I suggest NFHS Situation 4-22-b should be modify to only state that Team B (the man up team) only be penalized if they have too many men on the field.

One of the other things about the NFHS book that should be looked at (& modified) is the horn. the NFHS book makes it sounds as if you should be blowing the horn for regular substitutions after goals and time-serving penalties each time.

Thoughts?
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Postby Andy Sharp on Thu May 01, 2008 8:03 am

In the NCAA situation I saw, the officials did not let the 20 second buzzer go off to trigger the IP call, instead they restarted play and a bit later realized it and made the call. The fact that the team did not have the full 20 to realize their wrong numbers was the point of contention.

I notice in Rule 6 Section 6-F-4 that the 20 seconds doesn't start until the penalty has been reported and the the official must signal the start of the buzzer with a raised arm. Can't say this was done in the situation I saw. The official reporting the penalty walked back from the substitution area to the nearest corner of the attack area and quickly started play with his own whistle before checking if the field was set.

If this happened on your crew would you still enforce the IP or would you get numbers correct and reset the clock?
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Postby LAXDawg14 on Thu May 01, 2008 9:12 am

on a side note.... anyone know what rules the N. Carolina Private schools play by?

i remember we didnt have stick checks unless asked for it and there were horns on the endlines [wierd i know]

its been a while since i played hs.....



sorry to get off track jw what modifications were made to the NFHS rules :oops:
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Postby LaxRef on Thu May 01, 2008 9:20 am

Sonny wrote:One of the other things about the NFHS book that should be looked at (& modified) is the horn. the NFHS book makes it sounds as if you should be blowing the horn for regular substitutions after goals and time-serving penalties each time.

Thoughts?


The NCAA rules said the same thing until a few years ago when I re-wrote that section. The same re-write was submitted to NFHS and declined. I honestly don't understand how the NFHS committee can fail to see the merit in having the rules reflect reality.
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Postby shrekjr on Thu May 01, 2008 11:47 am

Sonny wrote:That is exactly the way I've handled (advantage/disadvantage). What advantage is a team gaining when they are playing at even strength temporarily -- when they are man-up?

I agree, but what to do when the missing man is supposed to be the one picking up the ball to restart play and no one else on the field wants it! Had that situation last weekend. The beeper went off, I gave an additional 5-count for someone to pick up the ball (don't know why), no one made any attempt to come get the ball, so I blew the whistle and we went the other way.
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Postby LaxRef on Thu May 01, 2008 2:52 pm

shrekjr wrote:
Sonny wrote:That is exactly the way I've handled (advantage/disadvantage). What advantage is a team gaining when they are playing at even strength temporarily -- when they are man-up?

I agree, but what to do when the missing man is supposed to be the one picking up the ball to restart play and no one else on the field wants it! Had that situation last weekend. The beeper went off, I gave an additional 5-count for someone to pick up the ball (don't know why), no one made any attempt to come get the ball, so I blew the whistle and we went the other way.


I think theoretically they're supposed to have the ball in the stick ready to go when the timer goes off, but most of aren't quite that harsh.
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Postby Sonny on Thu May 01, 2008 3:07 pm

shrekjr wrote:
Sonny wrote:That is exactly the way I've handled (advantage/disadvantage). What advantage is a team gaining when they are playing at even strength temporarily -- when they are man-up?

I agree, but what to do when the missing man is supposed to be the one picking up the ball to restart play and no one else on the field wants it! Had that situation last weekend. The beeper went off, I gave an additional 5-count for someone to pick up the ball (don't know why), no one made any attempt to come get the ball, so I blew the whistle and we went the other way.


That would be delay of game clearly. Turnover after a five count... Hopefully your partner was getting the ball ready for play, if you were the official relaying the penalty to the bench.
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