What is going on here?

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What is going on here?

Postby LaxRef on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:50 pm

A1 is bringing the ball up the field and is slashed by B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, and B7 (seven penalties: flags, hats, sunglasses, keys all over the field). A1 finally drops the ball a few seconds after the last slash. Coach A then yells a word that you can't say on TV really loud and is flagged for a 1:00 NR USC.

What's he cursing about? And what should he have done?

[If you know this right away, wait until 3/20 to post your answer to give other people a chance to wrestle with it.]

[Slight edit to make it even more interesting.]
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Postby Sonny on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:07 pm

Where does A1 drop the ball - inside or outside the box? ;)
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Postby shrekjr on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:14 pm

It's raining and the coach wants to go home without stopping the clock for another penalty?
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Postby LaxRef on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:16 pm

Sonny wrote:Where does A1 drop the ball - inside or outside the box? ;)


Good question. Since I want this to work for both NFHS and NCAA, outside the box.
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Postby Sonny on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:01 pm

LaxRef wrote:
Sonny wrote:Where does A1 drop the ball - inside or outside the box? ;)


Good question. Since I want this to work for both NFHS and NCAA, outside the box.


So Coach A's penalty for USC comes after the whistle? (i.e. dead ball foul)
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Postby LaxRef on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:32 pm

Sonny wrote:
LaxRef wrote:
Sonny wrote:Where does A1 drop the ball - inside or outside the box? ;)


Good question. Since I want this to work for both NFHS and NCAA, outside the box.


So Coach A's penalty for USC comes after the whistle? (i.e. dead ball foul)


Yes, it is.
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Postby Sonny on Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:08 am

I'm sure this is some sort of trick question.... But here goes.

B1 - B7 serve personal fouls for slashing. B1, B2, B3 first in the box. Team B loses three guys from the field. B4, B5, B6, B7 are stacked waiting till B1, B2, B3's penalties expire.

Team A's in home serves personal foul for 1 min NR USC on A coach.

Ball goes back to Team B on A's foul. No simultaneous fouls (7 live ball fouls on B, one dead ball foul on A) and we can determine the order.

B starts the ball just over the midfield stripe and they are playing 3 on 5 on their offensive half of the field.

No idea what the comment was. :)
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Re: What is going on here?

Postby LaxRef on Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:51 am

LaxRef wrote:A1 is bringing the ball up the field and is slashed by B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, and B7 (seven penalties: flags, hats, sunglasses, keys all over the field). A1 finally drops the ball a few seconds after the last slash. Coach A then yells a word that you can't say on TV really loud and is flagged for a 1:00 NR USC.

What's he cursing about? And what should he have done?

[If you know this right away, wait until 3/20 to post your answer to give other people a chance to wrestle with it.]

[Slight edit to make it even more interesting.]


Here's the deal:

Different answers for NCAA and NFHS, although in both cases the fouls are not simultaneous (the slashes are live-ball and the USC is dead ball). However, by NCAA 7-2-d (similar rule in NFHS), the 1:00 USC foul by Coach A makes the longest common penalty time non-releasable. Thus, Coach A took those 7 releasable penalties and turned them into 7 non-releasable penalties, all for the low, low price of a 1-minute penalty on his own team and loss of possession.

Now for the specifics:

===============

NCAA: As Sonny points out, the penalties stack, so B1-B3 serve 1:00 NR while A1 serves 1:00 NR; this will be followed by B3-B6 serving 1:00 NR, then B7 serving 1:00 NR. Thus, Team A is up 2 men for 1:00, 3 men for 1:00, and 1 man for 1:00.

===============

NFHS: Team B will have 7 players in the penalty area at once, all for 1:00, while Team A will have one player serving for 1:00, all non-releasable. Team B will have to have 3 players on its offensive end and none on its defensive end. Team B will have possession, but if Team A can get the ball they'll have an open goal and they'll score.

But there's more: Team B cannot legally put a player out to face-off, so Team A will get possession in its offensive end, will still have no defense to face, and they'll score again. And again, and again!

===============

Now, this coach seems pretty sharp, but he wasn't sharp enough. If he had gotten his USC while the play was still live, we would have been in a simultaneous foul situation (all 8 fouls occurring during the same live ball). Everything would be the same, except Team A would have been awarded possession based on less overall penalty time.

This is clearly better in the NCAA scenario, but where it really shines is in the NFHS scenario: you have possession in your offensive end, no defense or goalie, and 1 minute to score as many goals as you can. I would guess that a decent team could score about 7-10 goals, and a really, really good team could put in over 15! And even if you miss on a pass and the ball goes OOB, the other team can't legally take possession, so you'd still get the ball back (on a shot, you'd pretty much have to get possession since Team B's closest player is on the other side of the field).

Of course, if you ever see anything close to this in a game, you should buy a lottery ticket on the way home.
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Postby Sonny on Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:02 am

My answer was obviously under NCAA rules. :)

7 men down under NFHS rules would be mighty interesting, but I can't ever remember being more then 3 men down under NFHS or NCAA rules.
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Re: What is going on here?

Postby John Paul on Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:05 am

LaxRef wrote:Of course, if you ever see anything close to this in a game, you should buy a lottery ticket on the way home.


We were down three men for a minute against CMU last Friday. That was the first time I had experienced that in a game I was involved in.

I was at the USA vs. Canada round robin game at the 2002 World Championships in Perth when Canada's strategy was to intimidate the younger American team to set themselves up for the final. They had a total of 29 penalties (and got off easy, to be honest) and at one point they were down 4 men (you can go down more than 3 men in international lacrosse). It was surreal.
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Postby LaxRef on Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:12 am

Sonny wrote:My answer was obviously under NCAA rules. :)

7 men down under NFHS rules would be mighty interesting, but I can't ever remember being more then 3 men down under NFHS or NCAA rules.


I had 4 in a USLIA game a few years ago (before MCLA). Team A was winning and, with about 2 minutes to go, Team B decided they weren't going to win so they might as well beat the crap out of Team A.

I had 5 in an NFHS game once. It went something like illegal stick , illegal body check, cross check, USC, slash. The other team got one goal out of it.
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Postby Steno on Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:21 am

Laxref -
What's the logic behind the equal length penalties picking up the non-releasable status of coach A's USC? What is that rule there to prevent?
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Postby LaxRef on Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:26 am

Steno wrote:Laxref -
What's the logic behind the equal length penalties picking up the non-releasable status of coach A's USC? What is that rule there to prevent?


From an article I'm working on:

Why do we have Rule 7-2-d?

Most people don’t understand why we have Rule 7-2-d in the first place. Consider a situation in which A1 and B1 slash each other and get sent off for 1 minute each, so the teams will restart play 5-on-5. If we didn’t have Rule 7-2-d, both penalties would be releasable. Suppose Team A scores in 15 seconds: that’s an even strength goal. In the absence of 7-2-d, B1 is released by the goal, so Team B now enjoys a man advantage for 45 seconds. Now Team B scores.

What’s the net result? Team A scored an even-strength goal, while Team B scored a man-up goal. Team B obviously gets the better side of the deal despite the fact that the original penalties were exactly equal. Since this seems unfair, we have Rule 7-2-d to prevent this from happening.
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Postby TexOle on Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:25 am

You guys are weak. I had one last year in HS that resulted in some 4 minutes of 3 man up or more for a team. I think at the peak I had 5 men in the box for one team.

In a middle school game I had 4 in the box for one team and 3 in the box for another team. All of those were ejections.
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Re: What is going on here?

Postby beckner11 on Sat May 03, 2008 11:00 am

John Paul wrote:
LaxRef wrote:Of course, if you ever see anything close to this in a game, you should buy a lottery ticket on the way home.


We were down three men for a minute against CMU last Friday. That was the first time I had experienced that in a game I was involved in.


Back about 4 years ago when I was still playing my team went 4 men down.... to which the officials actually made us play with only 2 defenders on the field. Absolutely ridiculous situation!
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