3/14/07 Division A Poll is out!!

[CougarCrushers Anonymous]

I think those us that have been reading these boards for a couple of seasons know that some people have ridiculous bias in their opinions. Dear people - please take everything with a grain of salt - some people will post anything to help their day go by faster.
My favorite author on these boards rights the same thing every time just switches the words up a bit.
"Sonoma would lose to first year JV squad."
"Regardless of what the scoreboard says, UCSB DOMINATED THE GAME, the Gauchos will crush the competition if they ever play again"
"Saint Ignatius High School would easily handle Syracuse, Boys Latin and Team Canada. Only team USA could touch SI. The only reason they could is because the team will would be made strictly of SI grads."

[CATLAX MAN]

This year, they take care of business, yet people come up with some ridiculous excuse to diminish their accomplishment of beating 3 WCLL-A teams.

Give it a rest people. Embrace the fact that new faces are at the forefront of the league this year.

This is one of the few times that I can agree with you. I think the WCLL is lucky to have any teams in the Top 10 at this point. It's a new day, people. As SOHOT says, get used to it.

[laxdad03]

I think it is time that we better look at what teams do on the field. Not how good we think they are, or if they just had a bad game. That does not matter. Any team can win on any day, and that is what we need to respect. When BYU still gets 3 first place votes over Oregon who beat them and the #4 and #6, there is a major problem with bias.

Just to play devil's advocate here (and NOT trying to make an argument or statement about any particular teams in this case): The statement "Any team can win on any day" seems to be all the more reason for the importance of additional analysis based on ALL the (good) information one can get (taken together with who beat who, which of course is quite important). This might reasonably include (with one's best attempts at the proper weighting factors, etc.) such things as presumed reasons for certain game performances and outcomes, team and individual strengths and weaknesses, and analyzing various teams' play against a broader variety of opponents (and all of these rightly include "what teams do on the field").

If the only allowable (and irrefutable) information were "Team x beat team y, therefore team x MUST be ranked above team y", it would often be impossible to have meaningful rankings -- we've all seen the paradoxes normally created (e.g. team a beats b, b beats c, c beats a). There clearly HAS to be something more. Tournaments can be set up (by definition) with a single winner, and one would hope that at least much of the time, that single winner (the legitimate "champion") is actually (by other measures) considered to be the "best" team as well. Regular season games (particularly with all the varying strengths of schedule, geographical and conference constraints, etc.) cannot practically be set up with such a well-defined, clear-cut result.

If a down-to-the-wire one goal loss ("on any day") is touted as indication of it being "a major problem with bias" for a small number (7.5%) of pollsters to dare to express an opinion which differs from the binary result of that ONE game (presumably based on a variety of information which, for whatever reason, they honestly consider to have validity), then I see THAT rather narrow-minded attitude as a (much more troublesome) problem. The vast majority of the pollsters (92.5%) did vote (for whatever reasons) in a way that agreed with that game's results; that should be just fine. It is a poll, not a tournament. Sometimes there will unavoidably be cases of unfounded bias influencing some votes, but that should not be taken as the only possible reason for differences of opinion. That's why there are a large number of pollsters (who deserve our thanks) -- to make it possible to get something other than simple conclusions (and paradoxes), and give us something to talk about in the bargain.

[SDSULAX]

I watched Northeastern play and I echo the sentiments and opinions of Albert Mann and Sohotrightnow. They are for real, deserving of the ranking and most of the top 25 teams should consider themselves lucky to not have them on their schedules to spoil their standings.

[Duffy34]

People people people. everyone needs to relax. Im sure the next poll will be all different as well as this one is from the pre-season poll. I dont get why everyone on here is complaining. Do you think kids on UVA or 'Cuse complain when they arent ranked in the top 5? no they prob go and shoot and run and work hard for the next game so they can win and move up. It is march 14th, everyone should relax. this is the problem with the MCLA, it is treated like JV high school lacrosse. I havent seen complaining like this since the insidelacrosse forums when i was in high school.

[CPLaxGM]

On the Northeastern ranking:

They won four games in six days on the road, including a 6 goal victory over Arizona. I don't know if it should really be considered in the rankings or not, but everybody realizes they probably hadn't practiced a whole lot before this trip (at least on a full sized field). The one goal victory over San Diego is a bit of a head-scratcher, but they won and that's the bottom line. Overall, it was an impressive trip and it's hard to see how anyone can argue with them being over-ranked. As I've mentioned before, it's irrelevant how many spots they jumped in the polls, because the previous poll was based on pure pre-season speculation (e.g. reputation and program history) and not actual game results.

If Northeastern runs the table the rest of the season and wins their league title, then they will get the AQ from the PCLL and justify their current ranking (and possibly move up even more). Considering they may not play any more ranked teams this season, that's the best scenario. The problem will be if they lose the AQ to another PCLL team; then, the pollsters will have to decide if they still deserve a high enough ranking to earn an at-large berth into the Tourney (usually around the #12 spot) based almost entirely on the results from their California trip in March. So for right now, everything makes sense but if they lose the AQ than things will get complicated for Northeastern and the rest of the bubble teams.

[JerzWB]

The problem will be if they lose the AQ to another PCLL team; then, the pollsters will have to decide if they still deserve a high enough ranking to earn an at-large berth into the Tourney (usually around the #12 spot) based almost entirely on the results from their California trip in March. So for right now, everything makes sense but if they lose the AQ than things will get complicated for Northeastern and the rest of the bubble teams.

I couldn't agree more.

[NomaBlueCollar]

Catlax Man,
Do you think that CSU should drop out of the top 10 also, because they lost to Oregon by more than Sonoma did and to BYU by one goal as well. No of course you don't think that because for some reason you always go against Sonoma.

No, they shouldn't and it has nothing to do with going against Sonoma. It's about the facts. CSU came back the very next day after taking that pasting from Oregon and whomped Sonoma by about 10 goals or so. They also beat a ranked Utah team, a ranked UMD team, and almost pulled off an upset against BYU in the course of about a week.

What has Sonoma done this year? The best thing that they can point to is a close loss to BYU at the back end of 3 games in 4 days for BYU and Sonoma being fresh. I've seen them plenty of times over the years and, in my estimation, they are not nearly the team this year that they have been in the past. They have offensive talent, but it is not as deep as in the past. Defensively, Pringle is still solid, but the poles are not as impressive as what they have had in the past.

First off, CSU was the only team in Eugene that weekend with SSU and Oregon that had a day off in between games, get your info right.

Second, Sonoma just smashed UNR (yes an unranked team i know) by 17 goals...with their 3rd goalie between the pipes all game. I believe its fair to cut SSU a tiny bit of slack too in their first three quarters of the season against Santa Clara, but it was clear who was the more dominate team at the end of the game. Sonoma sensed a taste of defeat, and overcame to win by 7.

As for your remarks about previous Sonoma teams... yes they might have been stronger than this year's, but that is exactly why Sonoma hasn't been in the top 3 since the pre-season poll.

your arguments hold little water

[Danny Hogan]

Do you think kids on UVA or 'Cuse complain when they arent ranked in the top 5? no they prob go and shoot and run and work hard for the next game so they can win and move up.

take a gander at any of the other popular lax forums, there is plenty of the exact same arguements.

the kids are out running and shooting. its us has-beens,fans and parents (just like on laxpower and lax.com) that hack it out on here.

[CATLAX MAN]

First off, CSU was the only team in Eugene that weekend with SSU and Oregon that had a day off in between games, get your info right.

Sorry, you're right. Sonoma was losing to Oregon the day before. I was one day off. That one day difference doesn't change anything about what CSU has done since that opening loss nor does it change what Sonoma has done.

Second, Sonoma just smashed UNR (yes an unranked team i know) by 17 goals...with their 3rd goalie between the pipes all game. I believe its fair to cut SSU a tiny bit of slack too in their first three quarters of the season against Santa Clara, but it was clear who was the more dominate team at the end of the game. Sonoma sensed a taste of defeat, and overcame to win by 7.

Don't disagree with the fact they came back and won that game. My point is, and was, that past Sonoma teams would've run a team like Santa Clara off the field in the first quarter. This team couldn't do that. The only explanation is that either Sonoma is not as strong as they have been or Santa Clara has gotten a lot better. I think it's both of those, but clearly this Sonoma team..........right now........is not as strong as they have been in past seasons. That doesn't mean they won't improve as the season progresses. I have no ax to grind against Sonoma, but I do think that they and other teams get the benefit of the doubt from pollsters at the expense of other teams that are better..........right now.

[Scrape Mode]

I think those us that have been reading these boards for a couple of seasons know that some people have ridiculous bias in their opinions. Dear people - please take everything with a grain of salt - some people will post anything to help their day go by faster.
My favorite author on these boards rights the same thing every time just switches the words up a bit.
"Sonoma would lose to first year JV squad."
"Regardless of what the scoreboard says, UCSB DOMINATED THE GAME, the Gauchos will crush the competition if they ever play again"
"Saint Ignatius High School would easily handle Syracuse, Boys Latin and Team Canada. Only team USA could touch SI. The only reason they could is because the team will would be made strictly of SI grads."

Is no one else going to comment on this post? Well, I'll take a shot. BEST post of the year!!

[hamlax14]

In terms of complaining about Northeastern's jump in the polls, it's not really unwarranted. They did do a full sweep in SD over a week's time (though they did get days off between their games). Their win over Arizona was a solid one (and it's been made clear that the fact that AZ had played 2 games in the previous 2 days doesn't matter, or even that they had played 6 games in the past 11 days). There is no real problem in my mind that they are ranked where they are. The problem I have is that Arizona dropped below a team with much lower credentials so far this season (UCSB, and possibly even Sonoma, but that's a different argument other have made). Again, my point is not that Northeastern shouldn't be so highly ranked (go ahead and debate their SOS issues with that one), but that AZ gets dropped 5 spots for only their second loss of the season, the first being to the currently #2 ranked BYU team. That is all I wanted to get across. JerzWB has it correct in his post saying that AZ holds their destiny in their own hands, it would just be nice to get a little more credit where it's due.

[Beta]

"Sonoma would lose to first year JV squad."
"Regardless of what the scoreboard says, UCSB DOMINATED THE GAME, the Gauchos will crush the competition if they ever play again"
"Saint Ignatius High School would easily handle Syracuse, Boys Latin and Team Canada. Only team USA could touch SI. The only reason they could is because the team will would be made strictly of SI grads."

You failed to mention Chuck Norris

[jmaxwell2]

Catlax Man,
Do you think that CSU should drop out of the top 10 also, because they lost to Oregon by more than Sonoma did and to BYU by one goal as well. No of course you don't think that because for some reason you always go against Sonoma.

No, they shouldn't and it has nothing to do with going against Sonoma. It's about the facts. CSU came back the very next day after taking that pasting from Oregon and whomped Sonoma by about 10 goals or so. They also beat a ranked Utah team, a ranked UMD team, and almost pulled off an upset against BYU in the course of about a week.

What has Sonoma done this year? The best thing that they can point to is a close loss to BYU at the back end of 3 games in 4 days for BYU and Sonoma being fresh. I've seen them plenty of times over the years and, in my estimation, they are not nearly the team this year that they have been in the past. They have offensive talent, but it is not as deep as in the past. Defensively, Pringle is still solid, but the poles are not as impressive as what they have had in the past.

I Would have to agree with westcoastlax. CatLax Man has always demonstrated a negative attitude toward Sonoma. In addition, it appears that CatLax Man needs to brush up on his facts. The truth is that CSU played Oregon on a Friday night. On Saturday, Oregon played Somona and lost by a respectable close score of 13-9. The next day after a day of rest, CSU came out after a day off and beat Sonoma. However, it appears that Sonoma State may have just run out of gas in the 4th quarter, after tough game against Oregon the day before, as the score after 3 quarters in the CSU/Sonoma game was 10-7, before CSU scored 7 goals in the 4th.

Westcoastlax is correct that CatLax Man always goes against Sonoma!

[WaterBoy]

as the score after 3 quarters in the CSU/Sonoma game was 10-7, before CSU scored 7 goals in the 4th.

Be careful with that kind o' stuff. That's like saying Noma beat Santa Clara 4-3.

CATLAX is a pretty well informed guy- he also happens to be a fan of UC Santa Barbara. In the same way that fans of Sonoma support their team, he supports his.

Everyone has some kind of bias for some team or conference- mine personally is for UCSD (which is a little tougher this year- but I still support them and cheer for them). In a rivalry like the between Noma and UCSB, you can expect that he's going to pick his team over the others- but ultimately he is being a good fan for his team.

None of us are obligated (with the exception of referees and poll voters) to be completely objective. If you think he's full of hot air, take his posts with a grain of salt- argue the post, not the poster.