Lax World MCLA Div 2 Top 25 Poll (4/2/08) is out!

[Kyle Berggren]

I understand that using losses & game score throughout a game can be a slippery slope, but if you don't use all available information, why bother? We might as well just rank teams by wins & losses.

No one is saying UST had a terrible day, so who cares if GVSU beat them. The game is reflected in the polls, it should be. Why wouldn't it? I don't understand the jump from seeing teams play close games against top competition & losing, so they don't drop much in the polls if at all, & saying a team played/won a game that didn't matter. WOU losing to CWU was a let down, a game WOU greatly wants back. They were surprised & unprepared for CWU. This is/was reflected in the polls. I'm not sure what the rankings were, but I believe they were both around 20 at the time... WWU was top 10ish, so WOU would have moved up for the big win & back down for the loss, but where to leave them is the question? Somewhere in the middle, 15ish? Since, WOU has moved up do to their play (most recently in California) & CWU has moved around accordingly as well. Both are good teams & although CWU beat WOU on that day, I saw that game as a let down for WOU. A game they could have & should have won. When I was voting, I wouldn't have treated it as a win, it's a loss... & it does move WOU in the polls, they'd probably be in the top 10 right now if that loss wasn't on their card.

Harding's close game against Dayton was also factored into the polls... otherwise they most likely wouldn't be ranked where they are now if at all... No wins against any team ranked higher than 37... Which was a close game (3 goals against a 1-4 team, why is the 1-4 team receiving votes again?)... This was a situation you had to look at the games being played. It was early in the season & it was a W... Not a big win like most would have expected, but a win. It's hard to count that against Harding. The close game to Dayton shows they can compete with the top tier teams in D2, but how to rank them after that is difficult. If they haven't played games against anyone a voter feels should be ranked around them, it's very difficult to place them. We know they should be between #3 & #37, where do we put them? Even the information we have here isn't simply based off wins & losses. I didn't realize laxpower was missing the Memphis game, but I'm unsure as to why the Hendrix game doesn't count? This is just the start of what pollsters are looking at when they adjust their polls... I didn't want to commit the time again this year, so I have no idea what the circumstances are around the Hendrix game, but a pollster would try to figure it out. We have to try to balance all the relevant information, to say games weren't reflected in the polls isn't accurate. Even the Hendrix game was reflected in the early polls with Harding's placement...

[dgr01002]

I think the obvious answer is that is why there is more than 1 poll. There is no way to tell how good a team is until they have played all their games. In the case of Ft. Lewis they have a remaining games against #1 Westminster, #9 UVSC, and #15 UNC. If they are not a top 10 team we will know soon. It is hard to knock them for going 7-1 so far?

I agree with the above comment, especially with teams like SCAD, Ft. Lewis, etc. Right now, there simply has not been a ton of OOC T15 action. And there has also been a lot of inter-conference action which makes voting harder (PNCLL is a great example). I think most teams KNOW Ft. Lewis has a solid offense and obviously has been playing great defense, regardless of where their opponents are ranked. Same with SCAD. Same with Dayton, Elon, GVSU. Same with UST. Etc., The other problem is the rankings from #20-#25. Teams are getting knocked off that were once there. So, it's been changing - literally every week. I think Northern Colorado probably got slighted because firstly, they were the lower ranked team in BOTH T15 games and technically should have gone 0-2 against. They went 1-1, so I think they should have held their spot. The Poll is not perfect, that's why it's called a poll. Also, many voters have not been participating which dramatically affects allocated points for each team.

[Pinball]

What people need to realize is the poll really means Absolutely nothing besides bragging rights and hits for Sonny site. When it comes down to the At-Large bids in May most of these controversies will have worked themselves out with UST playing Dayton, SJU and UNC, and the PNCLL teams should either win their tournament or play more OOC games if they want to care/complain about the poll because that is the only way a voter living in Georgia is going to be able to tell how good you are.

[btriley01]

I didn't realize laxpower was missing the Memphis game, but I'm unsure as to why the Hendrix game doesn't count? This is just the start of what pollsters are looking at when they adjust their polls... I didn't want to commit the time again this year, so I have no idea what the circumstances are around the Hendrix game, but a pollster would try to figure it out. We have to try to balance all the relevant information, to say games weren't reflected in the polls isn't accurate. Even the Hendrix game was reflected in the early polls with Harding's placement...

So pollsters should slight us for losing to a D3 NCAA squad? They are playing some of te best D3 schools in the nation, and we played them to two. I don't feel that should at all effect our poll spot. It was a non-conference game.

Also, I was jst making a point that it would be absurd to say UST had a ad game, just like its subjective to say WOU had a let down. they lost, it should be reflected in the polls. You lose to a team in the 20's, then you should be ranked under them, just like we are ranked under dayton. Also to say thay had a great weekend in the wcll doesn't say much. None of them are ranked.

On a side note, I'm really confused with the 25-infinite rankings, we should just cut off at 25 to lose the "homer" votes.

[Hi-Line Lax]

the "homer" votes go a long way to showing why the Div 2 poll is so awful... many of those teams DO NOT DESERVE ANY VOTES.

with just a quick stroll through the records this morning I'm looking at App State (3-9), CS Fullerton (6-4 w/ no quality wins), Biola (4-5), NAU (2-4), St. Louis (1-2), Dordt (2-3 w/ all losses to unranked), Maine (have they played a game yet???), DePaul (0-2), Carn. Mellon (1-4), Grove City (2-1 w/ loss to Bethel and no quality wins), Taylor (1-1), Tenn. Wes. (4-6 w/ no quality wins), Northern Mich. (2-5), St. Edwards (4-4 w/ no quality wins), Ferris (1-3) and Rockhurst (0-2)..... NONE OF THESE TEAMS SHOULD GET VOTES FOR THE TOP 25. There is a lot of good competition out there in Div 2, but to vote for winless teams or teams with significant losing records is just stupid.

[Gvlax]

the "homer" votes go a long way to showing why the Div 2 poll is so awful... many of those teams DO NOT DESERVE ANY VOTES.

with just a quick stroll through the records this morning I'm looking at App State (3-9), CS Fullerton (6-4 w/ no quality wins), Biola (4-5), NAU (2-4), St. Louis (1-2), Dordt (2-3 w/ all losses to unranked), Maine (have they played a game yet???), DePaul (0-2), Carn. Mellon (1-4), Grove City (2-1 w/ loss to Bethel and no quality wins), Taylor (1-1), Tenn. Wes. (4-6 w/ no quality wins), Northern Mich. (2-5), St. Edwards (4-4 w/ no quality wins), Ferris (1-3) and Rockhurst (0-2)..... NONE OF THESE TEAMS SHOULD GET VOTES FOR THE TOP 25. There is a lot of good competition out there in Div 2, but to vote for winless teams or teams with significant losing records is just stupid.

agreed

[culax]

What people need to realize is the poll really means Absolutely nothing besides bragging rights and hits for Sonny site. When it comes down to the At-Large bids in May most of these controversies will have worked themselves out with UST playing Dayton, SJU and UNC, and the PNCLL teams should either win their tournament or play more OOC games if they want to care/complain about the poll because that is the only way a voter living in Georgia is going to be able to tell how good you are.

You are absolutely correct. Early and mid-season polls mean nothing. Hopefully these issues are worked out by the final poll, the only one that counts.

[Kyle Berggren]

So pollsters should slight us for losing to a D3 NCAA squad? They are playing some of te best D3 schools in the nation, and we played them to two. I don't feel that should at all effect our poll spot. It was a non-conference game.

Also, I was jst making a point that it would be absurd to say UST had a ad game, just like its subjective to say WOU had a let down. they lost, it should be reflected in the polls. You lose to a team in the 20's, then you should be ranked under them, just like we are ranked under dayton. Also to say thay had a great weekend in the wcll doesn't say much. None of them are ranked.

On a side note, I'm really confused with the 25-infinite rankings, we should just cut off at 25 to lose the "homer" votes.

Should pollsters have counted it as a win against Hendrix? You obviously never done a poll. Losing a game against Hendrix doesn't mean your drop 7 spots.... I'm sure if you won, you wouldn't say the game doesn't matter. I'll guess in most polls you didn't drop at all because there is so little information on Hendrix in the first place.

So what happens in your poll if Westminster beats Dayton then the next day loses to I don't know, say Harding.... Should we rank Westminster behind Harding? You're taking far to simple a look at a team having 1 loss on their record. It's called parity, we've got lots of it this year in both D1 & D2.

So far you've said you're not sure about using game score & subjective results to create a poll... & now, if you lose to a team, you should drop below them. My point is it's just not as simple you would like... A loss doesn't drop you out of the poll. Michigan beating Kenyon a year or so back helped them, it didn't hurt their ranking. CU or CSU beating CC (all of top of my head) or losing to CC doesn't kill their ranking either. I believe CC even calls it a scrimmage if they lose. It's added information. By your system, Harding, a team I believe should be ranked inside the top 15 would be ranked about 30ish.... The best win they have is by 3 over a #37 ranked team... with a losing record. It's just not that simple.

The poll IS subjective, it has to be. Team A beats B beats C who beats A, we have to use available information to figure it out. The information is imperfect & we have to work with it.

[Mark Brown]

Stating Ft. Lewis doesn't deserve their ranking b/c they only have 2 wins against top 25 teams is absurd. The #1 team Westminster has only one win vs a top 25 team yet no one is complaining b/c there is so much more to voting. #2 St. John's has only one win vs a top 25 team, no one complaining. Dayton- one win vs a top 25 team...etc. Please have a better reason to complain before doing so.
I am a voter and I put many hours into each poll doing research. It is not easy but it is easy for someone that doesn't vote to be critical.
Kevin ( Hi-Line Lax) is right. Many of the teams receiving votes should not be getting them. We need more voters that are serious about it. Anyone that wants to step up and put in the time I'm sure Sonny will take you.

[asulax]

app state is 4-3 (lost to nc state (D1), USC (D1) and Elon). The schedule on the main page has them playing an LSA schedule on top of a SELC one. Should they be getting votes? probably not. You will know after this weekend when they play SCAD and Davidson.