4/11/07 Division A Poll is out!

[Albert Man]

Albert Man, can you give us some insite as to what you have seen in regards to NE while in SD and any WCLL teams you have seen this year?

IMHO I saw that NE's top 12 or so players can compete with anyone's top 12 in the nation. their entire team has alot of heart... my only question is whether they have the depth to do damage when the tourney is 3-4 games deep.

[Zeuslax]

JJlax wrote:

You can't lose to a division b team and expect to stay in the top 16. Rough loss.

Why not? I think there's some additional clarity needed with this statement.

[CATLAX MAN]

For additional clarity, factor in that Utah has a 6-7 record, this is a loss to another unranked team, and that they will most likely finish the season with a losing record. All those thinks add up to a team that really shouldn't be going to the tourney, IMHO.

[Maple Leaf]

JJlax wrote:

You can't lose to a division b team and expect to stay in the top 16. Rough loss.

Why not? I think there's some additional clarity needed with this statement.

Losing to a B team isn't always a death sentence. UCSD lost to USD last year, and they were a top 16 team. UCSD made the tournament as an at large bid.

Westminster lost to UC Davis 16-4 earlier this year. The difference is that USD was undefeated last year, so there was no way to tell how good they were.

[WaterBoy]

I'll chime in in support of NU- BC I haven't seen play. I would also echo what Albert Man said about NU- They can run, but I would wonder whether they have the depth. Their first line of middies is quite good and I think they would be a team in contention for the WCLL title. I think they probably wouldn't be the favorite, but I think they would make playoffs, and depending on their region and position, possibly semi finals.

I've seen NU play while they came here to San Diego, and I have seen quite a few of the WCLL teams play. I'm not going to call them the best team I've seen or anything to the extreme, but to think they're not a top flight team is not giving them due credit.

[JJLAX]

JJlax wrote:

You can't lose to a division b team and expect to stay in the top 16. Rough loss.

Why not? I think there's some additional clarity needed with this statement.

Losing to a B team isn't always a death sentence. UCSD lost to USD last year, and they were a top 16 team. UCSD made the tournament as an at large bid.

Westminster lost to UC Davis 16-4 earlier this year. The difference is that USD was undefeated last year, so there was no way to tell how good they were.

My guess is that UCSD had some time after that loss to prove themselves again and work their way into the tournament. All I'm saying is there is no way Utah can be in the top 16 in the next poll after losing to a Div. B opponent. No offense to any Div. B teams, but their is a big difference in talent between the top Div. A teams and the top Div. B teams. Trust me on that one.

[WaterBoy]

In regards to the occasionally-reappearing complaint that one league has too much representation in terms of poll voters, here is the ratio breakdown in terms of number of voters per league (If you're not in the CCLA stop complaining):

RMLC: 1 per team
WCLL: 1 per 2.5 teams
UMLL: 1 per 2 teams
SELC: 1 per 3.2 teams
GRLC: 1 per 2.67 teams
LSA: 1 per 2.4 teams
PCLL: 1 per 2.5 teams
PNCLL: 1 per 1.67 teams
CCLA: 1 per 6.5 teams

My point would be that though there are more numerical voters from places like the WCLL, there are 20 A Division teams there. The CCLA and SELC are the leagues that are seeming the most under-represented in terms of poll voters. On the whole, it seems the distribution is relatively equal around the board, barring the CCLA, which has two voters and 13 teams.

[Pinball]

The difference is that USD was undefeated last year, so there was no way to tell how good they were.

How quickly people forget: on 2/18/06 SJU defeated them 10-8

[More Cowbell]

I've seen NU play while they came here to San Diego, and I have seen quite a few of the WCLL teams play. I'm not going to call them the best team I've seen or anything to the extreme, but to think they're not a top flight team is not giving them due credit.

Which is why it is frustrating that most people say that they're only going to make the tournament if they win the PCLL. If theyre a top flight team then why are they not even in consideration for an at large?

[TrainerDan]

so utah's just done huh? no way no how are they in the top 16? i don't know.

The Utes will have to beat BYU, twice, to have even a remote chance at getting to the tourney. Seeing as they have never beaten the Cougars, my money is on an early offseason for Utah.

[DG]

I've seen NU play while they came here to San Diego, and I have seen quite a few of the WCLL teams play. I'm not going to call them the best team I've seen or anything to the extreme, but to think they're not a top flight team is not giving them due credit.

Which is why it is frustrating that most people say that they're only going to make the tournament if they win the PCLL. If theyre a top flight team then why are they not even in consideration for an at large?

I'm going to quote myself from 2 pages back since maybe you didn't see it.

On BC and NU...they played 8 WCLL teams. 2 of them were ranked in the top 15, and one in the top 25. 5 of those wins were against unranked teams, so why is that any different than beating unranked teams in other parts of the country? In terms of the polls, NU was rewarded for their win at Arizona. BC had a "close loss" against UCSB, and was rewarded for it.

Given the above, where do you think both teams belong in the poll?

Yours,

Bruce Dickinson

[x1dschm]

I've seen NU play while they came here to San Diego, and I have seen quite a few of the WCLL teams play. I'm not going to call them the best team I've seen or anything to the extreme, but to think they're not a top flight team is not giving them due credit.

Which is why it is frustrating that most people say that they're only going to make the tournament if they win the PCLL. If theyre a top flight team then why are they not even in consideration for an at large?

Don't believe everything you read on these boards. Most people that comment on the boards aren't voters so don't waste your breathe trying to convince people that NU and BC are quality teams.

If NU were to run the table but lose in the PCLL Finals I would be extremly surprised if they didn't make it to nationals. Opinions aside invitations are based on ranking not who the selection committee thinks is more or less worthy. For BC to make it they either need to run the table or have some teams a head of them falter (utah did them a big favor this weekend). Obviously you would like to control your own destiny but I think it is very possible to see both teams at nationals.

On a side note, notice how no one is talking about UMD and the fact that they play in a weak conference. It's because they have gone out of conference and played 5 very good teams. What NU and BC need to do is host a 4 team tourney and travel to a 4 team tourney (which is what UMD does on a regular basis). That way you play a handful of quality teams and people stop questioning whether or not you are worthy.

[CATLAX MAN]

[On a side note, notice how no one is talking about UMD and the fact that they play in a weak conference. It's because they have gone out of conference and played 5 very good teams. What NU and BC need to do is host a 4 team tourney and travel to a 4 team tourney (which is what UMD does on a regular basis). That way you play a handful of quality teams and people stop questioning whether or not you are worthy.

Exactly.

[univduke21]

I was kind of putting together a new poll after what has happened this weekend and I could come up with a top 4 but I was so confused about teams after that.

1)BYU
2)CSU
3)Oregon
4)Colorado


Damn I am gald I am not a pollster

[PSLguy]

Given the above, where do you think both teams belong in the poll?

The season long movement of the top PCLL teams, perhaps more than any other conference in the MCLA, are significantly impacted by their preseason ranking. In most seasons there has been the perceived favorite somewhere 10-20 and then some years a second PCLL team 20-30 (using the "also receiving pionts") Because it's so hard for the PCLL to schedule more than one big OOC trip with a strong SOS, they really only have one chance to make any upward poll momentum. If you start the season out of the top 18 or so...there is little chance you will move into the top 15 even with solid OOC trips. In years past the second best team in the PCLL may not have been this good but I think recently, and especially this year, two PCLL teams have legitimate top 16 squads (IMO). Even with both teams going OOC and playing well, when these two teams play each other in a tight game the higher PCLL poll team is punished inordinately for a loss (even though it's a rivalry game with a close score) because the perception is (in this case) that NU lost because they aren't that good, not because BC is better than anyone thinks. And even if a voter felt BC was that good the idea of vaulting a team 8 to 10 spots in the polls is generally considered unreasonable. (even if you account for it with 5-6 spots for underanking, and 3-4 spots for the good win)

I think this also means a PCLL team has to be very thoughtful who they schedule in their OOC trip. The first game of the season is usually the first time a PCLL team has even seen field lines and grass let alone another team. To schedule more top teams (the most often cited shortcoming on a PCLL schedule) they would have to entirely front end load that OOC trip. A few bad losses early in their season (that may occur due to full-field rustiness as much as anything else) can really hurt their already delicate ranking and can't be made up for later in the season the way other teams with closer top 25 competition are able to. A lot of western teams do have stronger schedules but I think you'll find that in most cases they aren't playing their 5 toughest games of the season the first 5 games of the season. (compare to teams in that same 10 to 16 range of the polls)

In the past conference bias hasn't hurt the PCLL so much with only one legit team, but now this conference bias (as reflected in preseason rankings) could keep out BC, NU, or both if an AQ upset occurs. Obviously other teams from other conferences have had similar situations I'm just expounding on it as it occurs in the PCLL. In addition, I think in at least some of those cases other conferences' 2nd teams have been given the benefit of the doubt, something the PCLL has never had.

No one in the PCLL is saying NU and BC are CSU/BYU killers but they are legitimately in the next grouping down.

That said I think both BC and NU are somewhere 8-16 caliber teams.