Iran in the bombsights?

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Iran in the bombsights?

Postby laxfan25 on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:42 am

More timely reporting from Sy Hersh of the New Yorker -

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007 ... fact_hersh

A few snippets, but if interested, take the time to read the whole article.
Sound as well-conceived and thought-out as our previous effort with their neighbor.

...This summer, the White House, pushed by the office of Vice-President Dick Cheney, requested that the Joint Chiefs of Staff redraw long-standing plans for a possible attack on Iran, according to former officials and government consultants. The focus of the plans had been a broad bombing attack, with targets including Iran’s known and suspected nuclear facilities and other military and infrastructure sites. Now the emphasis is on “surgical” strikes on Revolutionary Guard Corps facilities in Tehran and elsewhere, which, the Administration claims, have been the source of attacks on Americans in Iraq. What had been presented primarily as a counter-proliferation mission has been reconceived as counterterrorism.

The shift in targeting reflects three developments. First, the President and his senior advisers have concluded that their campaign to convince the American public that Iran poses an imminent nuclear threat has failed (unlike a similar campaign before the Iraq war), and that as a result there is not enough popular support for a major bombing campaign. The second development is that the White House has come to terms, in private, with the general consensus of the American intelligence community that Iran is at least five years away from obtaining a bomb. And, finally, there has been a growing recognition in Washington and throughout the Middle East that Iran is emerging as the geopolitical winner of the war in Iraq.

...At a White House meeting with Cheney this summer, according to a former senior intelligence official, it was agreed that, if limited strikes on Iran were carried out, the Administration could fend off criticism by arguing that they were a defensive action to save soldiers in Iraq. If Democrats objected, the Administration could say, “Bill Clinton did the same thing; he conducted limited strikes in Afghanistan, the Sudan, and in Baghdad to protect American lives.” The former intelligence official added, “There is a desperate effort by Cheney et al. to bring military action to Iran as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the politicians are saying, ‘You can’t do it, because every Republican is going to be defeated, and we’re only one fact from going over the cliff in Iraq.’ But Cheney doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the Republican worries, and neither does the President.”

...General David Petraeus, the commander of the multinational forces in Iraq, in his report to Congress in September, buttressed the Administration’s case against Iran. “None of us, earlier this year, appreciated the extent of Iranian involvement in Iraq, something about which we and Iraq’s leaders all now have greater concern,” he said. Iran, Petraeus said, was fighting “a proxy war against the Iraqi state and coalition forces in Iraq.”

Iran has had a presence in Iraq for decades; the extent and the purpose of its current activities there are in dispute, however. During Saddam Hussein’s rule, when the Sunni-dominated Baath Party brutally oppressed the majority Shiites, Iran supported them. Many in the present Iraqi Shiite leadership, including prominent members of the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, spent years in exile in Iran; last week, at the Council on Foreign Relations, Maliki said, according to the Washington Post, that Iraq’s relations with the Iranians had “improved to the point that they are not interfering in our internal affairs.” Iran is so entrenched in Iraqi Shiite circles that any “proxy war” could be as much through the Iraqi state as against it. The crux of the Bush Administration’s strategic dilemma is that its decision to back a Shiite-led government after the fall of Saddam has empowered Iran, and made it impossible to exclude Iran from the Iraqi political scene.
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Postby DanGenck on Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:03 am

Logistically, with our military already being forwardly deployed, is this even possible?
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Postby Zeuslax on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:29 pm

Logistically, with our military already being forwardly deployed, is this even possible?


If we are forced into something unforseen we would be looking at the Navy and Airforce.
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Postby everythingwentnumb on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:53 pm

Note also that this time we would have international support. France and Germany have already publicly stated that if Iran does not submit to UN sanctions, both countries will leave military strikes on the country as an option.

On the home front, though, I think most Americans are war-weary and wouldn't support any war, regardless of how legitimate a threat Iran is. The average American is going to think to himself, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Postby Zeuslax on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:58 pm

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


Or they're thinking.................
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again'
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Postby TexOle on Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:12 pm

The Navy and the Air Force are an option. Some people speculate that a plan has already been made. I think the big thing is that Iran is close to going through a revolution that could push the old guard out.
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Postby scooter on Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:22 pm

TexOle wrote:I think the big thing is that Iran is close to going through a revolution that could push the old guard out.


sources for this line of thinking?
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Postby TexOle on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:01 pm

scooter wrote:
TexOle wrote:I think the big thing is that Iran is close to going through a revolution that could push the old guard out.


sources for this line of thinking?


Some of the student protests in Iran that have gained attention in previous months. I think the students are ready to fight a revolution.
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Postby Sonny on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm

everythingwentnumb wrote:Note also that this time we would have international support.


The international support (Multiple UN sanctions) did us a lot of good last time. Most of the rest of the world is weak. When push comes to shove, they would rather follow then lead.
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Postby Hugh Nunn on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:27 pm

TexOle wrote:
scooter wrote:
TexOle wrote:I think the big thing is that Iran is close to going through a revolution that could push the old guard out.


sources for this line of thinking?


Some of the student protests in Iran that have gained attention in previous months. I think the students are ready to fight a revolution.


This is a huge problem. Even if the students were organized to the extent that ANY armed insurrection were possible, it would be met with violent opposition. The Iranians are doing everything they can do to make everyone think that any attacks on them would move not just Iran and Iraq further from stability, but would plunge the entire region into utter chaos. I believe that this is not too terribly far from the truth.

Another issue is that airstrikes alone will not really accomplish anything beyond immediate loss of facilities, buildings, airfields, etc. Any lasting effect would require the deployment of significant amounts of troops. UN troops are worthless. Our troops are already stretched too thin. There would have to be a massive effort to retain and attract more service members before and during any operation such as this. Bring back the draft? Hope not.

There are no easy answers. The issues have been further muddied by a very divisive Bush administration that has lost credibility and influence in every corner of the world (especially at home). But hoping Iranian students are ready to revolt is ineffective. Just ask the Kurds how easy it is to overthrow a totalitarian government without massive amounts of support. Just make sure you're wearing a chemical protection suit before digging them up to ask.
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Postby everythingwentnumb on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:37 pm

Sonny wrote:
everythingwentnumb wrote:Note also that this time we would have international support.


The international support (Multiple UN sanctions) did us a lot of good last time. Most of the rest of the world is weak. When push comes to shove, they would rather follow then lead.


Multiple UN sanctions =/= military action. That's what France and Germany threatened.
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Postby Sonny on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:58 pm

everythingwentnumb wrote: Multiple UN sanctions =/= military action. That's what France and Germany threatened.


The rest of the free world threatened military action against Iraq last time around. What makes you think Iran will be any different?
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Postby laxfan25 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 am

TexOle wrote:The Navy and the Air Force are an option. Some people speculate that a plan has already been made. I think the big thing is that Iran is close to going through a revolution that could push the old guard out.

And the worst thing we could do to weaken this path is to attack the country outright. One could make the case that countries tend to pull together when they feel like they are under attack from the outside, rather than revolting against the current regime. (Could you draw a correlary to the US reaction to 9-11?)
The plan right now would be to do this as a quick, surgical airstrike against Revolutionary Guard facilities. But as was shown in Iraq, massive air superiority does nothing to help you win the people over on the ground. When you hear them labeling the Revolutionary Guard (which is really Iran's army) as a terrorist organization you can hear the groundwork being laid for a justification. There are 3 carrier battle groups just hangin' around the Gulf as well, and they've got to be getting bored.

Dick Cheney has had a hard-on to pull off this strike for years, and what I heard the other day is that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are the ones holding him back. They learn their lessons quickly, realize that this can't all be done from the air, that it won't be quick and painless, and that the Army is hopelesly overwhelmed with our commitment in Iraq, so much so that we couldn't sustain the surge there beyond April even if we wanted to, which is why the plans that GWB announced for a pullout are so disingenuous- they just reflect reality and he's just looking to get in front of the band on this. This is one area where the blame has not really been laid yet - the "breaking" of the Army with our overextended commitment in Iraq. The consequences of this will affect us strategically (making us weaker on the world stage) and economically (as we either pay the bill or run up the credit card for the next decade rebuilding the Army and it's material).

Iran is much larger, is much better armed than Iraq, and has powerful allies that would not be pleased if we were to do this. For one, how do the Chinese feel about our threats? What are the geopolitical implications if we were to just lob a few bunkerbusters into Iran? Very easy to do, but could be a very messy cleanup.

In my opinion the Iranian leadership is not all that well entrenched. The real power still rests with the religious leadership. The population is fairly pro-Western and the US is well-liked by many. It is better to encourage this type of societal resistance to the imposition of religion on society than to go in like cowboys and strengthen the gov't by enabling them to say "I told you so!" There is also no getting around the fact that by putting the Shiites in control of Iraq (by eliminating Saddam) that we took out one of the real counterbalances in the region and have greatly strengthened Iran's influence in Iraq. They will now be buddy-buddies where they used to be nervous rivals.
Attacking Iran right now would be an even larger mistake than the invasion of Iraq, and that is saying a lot, since this was one of the biggest mistakes in our history.
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Postby Rob Graff on Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:45 am

I think it is informative to read this Sy Hersh article in conjunction with another article linked to by LaxFan 25... link found at the following topic
http://forums.collegelax.us/viewtopic.php?t=9115
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Postby laxfan25 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:49 pm

This topic really has me a bit nervous - knowing how gung-ho Cheney is on taking action here, and that his understanding of the results of his actions might not always jibe with reality.
What is disconcerting is that Bush/Cheney are in lame-duck status - there's nothing holding them back in terms of getting re-elected, and they don't apparently care how this would affect the rest of their party.
The thinking is also that "we need to do this, to save the next administration the hassle of making this decision - they might be too lily-livered to take the bold steps needed" - unlike the bold decisions made by The Decider.
I'm counting on the military to hold off this rush to bombing, and that is also disconcerting because they might have to counter their commander in chief, not really part of their nature.
Just remember to look beyond the headlines and try to imagine what can really be going on. The balance of this administration's time can be fraught with peril.
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