LaxTV Forums | A Forum About The MCLA

If the following report is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, I'm deeply concerned that America is losing (has already lost?) the "technology leader" mantle in the hard sciences. This troubles me greately, as it was innovation and development in those sciences that made us the pre-eminant power in the world in the latter half of the 20th century. Three questions -

1. Are we/have we lost the leadership role in the hard sciences?

2. And if we have, what is to blame? The "lazyness" of the american student? The anti-science attitude of the religious right that has guided federal spending since the 1994 congressional elections? Something else?

3. What do we do to get it back?

link - http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/16/32736.aspx

quote:

Let's face it: Europe is now becoming the pre-eminent place on the frontiers of physics, with Japan, China, India and other countries competing hard as well. Meanwhile, particle physicists in the United States are preparing to shut down experiments at the SLAC B Factory in 2008, and the Tevatron in 2009.

I would tend to agree that we have slipped, and also that the rest of the world has made great strides - in particular India and China. This is not something that has happened only since '94 though.

In much of our society - there is a "dumb chic" - it's not cool to be smart in school. The smart kids are looked at as geeks and nerds.

The cultural focus on the superficial - the rise of television and the hours spent staring at vapid programming. Look at the impact it has had on the general health of our nation, let alone its intellect.

In our history, we have benefitted by the contributions of immigrants to the US - much of our nuclear program was developed by scientists rom other countries. There was a "brain drain" around the world - funneling into the United States. What is troubling of late is that we have made it much more difficult for foreign students to come to the US - the number is down fairly dramatically - and they are choosing to go to universities in other countries, who will be the beneficiaries.

We are much closer to ancient Athens than Sparta. Contented, intellectually lazy, blissfully incurious about the rest of the world and with a misplaced arrogance that irritates many. I think it's ironic that our current leadership reflects that national style - feeling that we know best what is good for others around the world, and act like their resources are ours by divine right. (Damn it - those Iraqis are screwing with OUR oil!")

You may remember those days back in the 60's when America dominated the Olympics - which had a very heavy political undertone in the Cold War with godless Communism. Even there, the world has caught up - and China has a big surprise in store when the games are held in Beijing.
Similar parity has developed in the sciences as well. Don't forget that much of our research dollars are being focused on DARPA-type projects. Yes, there are sometimes spinoffs, but not as many benefits to society as there would be if those dollars were spend directly on research in healthcare and other areas.

Genetic research is one of the next big frontiers. We had a big hand in decoding the human genome, but this is one area where the religious right has had, and will have deleterious effects on the advances that will come out of that research - the rest of the world isn't slowing down!

All that being said - it's not all doom and gloom. But we can't take a head in the sand approach and believe that all is hunky-dory, We need to put more emphasis on math and science at all levels of the education system, and I think we need to emphasize programs for the best and brightest. Recognize those with talent and commit resources to develop it. We spend a lot of resources on special education - let's spend an equal amount on the other end - the payoff will be much bigger.

Laxfan,

A couple other things occur to me, though, all coming from an educational basis, as I would all but ignore the possibility that religious anti-science attitudes are holding us back. They might well be, but I am struggling my way through an M.A. in higher education administration, and finding the leaks in the education ship are flooding the lower decks quickly.

One of the first things that comes up in everything education is the idea of student as consumer, where what the student wants to learn, and is willing to pay for, they will get. Sciences are unforgiving disciplines, since if the equation is wrong, you can't argue it right or have your parents chastise the professor into a better grade. Given the number of high schoolers entering colleges every year who require remedial math and basic writing correction, the thought that large numbers of them will go on to advanced technical fields is sadly laughable.

Sure, some money comes in to biology and chemistry departments from private enterprises doing research, but its a drop in the bucket, and rarely ever pays for more than the profitable material produced for the companies.

Why don't kids come in willing to take the medicine of the educators? My feeling is the Athens bit as well - pure entitlement. I have friends who teach all kinds of subjects in high schools, and they can't get the majority of the kids to stop texting each other in class, much less actually do trig.

The current generation of kids in schools has never had to worry about their nation being second place in anything. Why would they assume anything else was possible and work to avoid it?

I don't think we've lost our "leadership role" in the sciences at all. Perhaps in physics, we've lost our edge, if we have ever really had one. I also don't think that the religious right has hampered federal funding for research.

The three research universities in Michigan (University of Michigan, Wayne State University, and Michigan State University) together bring in over 1.4 BILLION dollars a year in federal grants, mostly in the fields of technology, engineering, medicine and agriculture.

Don't forget that hard science fields like any of the earth sciences are paid relatively poorly. Bright college kids choose to go to law school or business school because the economic rewards are far greater. The question is, "Why should I spend 7 years in grad school if I'm only going to make $100,000?" It's a valid question.

There is also a disconnect between the sciences kids learn in high school and any real world applications. Why should they be interested in being a scientists if they don't even know what that means? Do scientists spend their whole lives doing chem labs or dissecting frogs? By the time they get to college and have the opportunity to see what a real researcher does, American students are usually too far behind to catch up.

I also think that the role of the "religious right" is over stated. I'm assuming that this in reference to the stem-cell debate. Much of the stem-cell research is done by private enterprise (a better gig than being dependent on Federal money anyway in my opinion) and we have just recently found that you can recover better stem cells from amniotic fluid than from embryos so I think that debate is rapidly losing steam. And while this administration drags its feet over climate change (pending the President's speech), scientific study is vigorous at the university and Federal level. In fact, to better your chances of having a proposal funded by the National Science Foundation one of the most important things to do is tie your own research into climate change.

Believe me, there are plenty of foreign students clamoring to get into American research universities, especially in math and physics. And don't assume that they are all better qualified than their American counterparts. It has been my experience that while they always look great on paper, foreign students are just as likely to be slackers or under prepared as Americans. The Chinese especially are notorious for teaching the tests including the GRE and the TOEFL so that their students come to this country but then can't handle the work.

I think it is sad to say, but with the current state of public education you are better off sending your kids to prep school in most parts of the country.

Part of this discussion that we can't avoid is the fact that the US in many ways operates in a vacuum when it comes to science. We have this weird misperception that we can only do it right here and we are so far ahead of everyone else. Which is crazy to me. Take a look at what other countries are doing in the way of energy resources and alternative fuels. It frustrates me to see American scientists reinvent the wheel in many areas. "oh look, we have this great new thing." No, they've had that in Europe for 20 years!

I agree with stryker that the foreign student theory is a little overblown. Just step on the campus of Carnegie Mellon with me for a day or two. Talk to one of my guys that eats chicken wings and drinks beer every night, but is like Good Will Hunting. Where the foreign student reduction hurts us is in the area of exporting perception.

Zeuslax wrote: Talk to one of my guys that eats chicken wings and drinks bear every night,

Drinking bear piss?? Jeez, you guys ARE tough! Especially the guys that have to obtain it - "Excuse me Yogi - do you mind peeing in this pint glass?"

If you can drink ram's piss, you can drink anything.

If you can drink ram's piss, you can drink anything.

You guys don't play CSU that much.......