Outrages of the day?

[laxfan25]

Continuing with our examination of race in America, a few news stories from recent days may show why many minorities believe that they are unfair targets of police actions.

First, the story out of New York about the soon-to-be-married groom and friends (unarmed) who were the victims of a hail of gunfire (50 shots) from undercover officers in an unmarked vehicle.

Next, out of the fair city of Atlanta;

Police Chief Richard Pennington pleaded for calm in print and in person yesterday as residents protested the death of an 88-year-old woman who was gunned down in a shootout with narcotics officers. That evening, according to police accounts, plainclothes officers stormed the house of Kathryn Johnston, whose age was previously reported as 92. They had obtained a warrant that didn't require them to knock, and they were looking for drugs. Johnston was fatally shot by officers who have said that they were returning her gunfire. Three officers were struck; none of their wounds was life-threatening.

Unannounced plainclothes officers invade a home and take fire. Perhaps Ms. Johnston recently moved from Kenesaw and thought it was a band of illegal immigrants trying to rent an apartment?
Certainly a cautionary tale for those that would seek to arm the populace in "self-defense".

More disturbing from the same article;

Concern over police shootings was running high in the Atlanta area before the incident. This month in suburban DeKalb County, prosecutors asked a grand jury to review police investigations of 12 fatal officer-involved shootings since Jan. 1. Nearly all of the suspects killed by the county police were black.

An average of one fatal shooting per month? And almost all of the victims are black? I'm sure all of the shootings were justified and all of the officers felt threatened and had to repond with lethal force - but why does it happen only when they are interacting with the black population? Perhaps it's the new affirmative action program in DeKalb County....
Can't understand why blacks get a little nervous when they're pulled over for a routine traffic stop.

[Danny Hogan]

can we see the links?

The NY thing is tragic, 50 bullets is alarming. Didn't the victims did ram the police vehicle (and an officer?) with their car?


The 88 y/o...i would bet and almost guarantee that the police announced their presence when they entered the residence.

[Sonny]

Unannounced plainclothes officers invade a home and take fire. Perhaps Ms. Johnston recently moved from Kenesaw and thought it was a band of illegal immigrants trying to rent an apartment?

There were there to serve a warrant. You can certainly argue the merits of that warrant as the information used to gain the warrant might be false. But it wasn't like the police just randomly picked a house to "invade."

Regardless, you gotta love an 88-year old woman packing heat when the police come busting in the door to serve a "no-knock" warrant. From what I've read she initiated the gunfire against the police. What are the cops suppose to do? Sit there and take it?

It has been great comedy here in the ATL over the last few days here to hear all the Race War Lords coming out of the woodwork. Sad and intriguing, all at the same time.

An average of one fatal shooting per month? And almost all of the victims are black? I'm sure all of the shootings were justified and all of the officers felt threatened and had to repond with lethal force - but why does it happen only when they are interacting with the black population?

Are they all innocent victims or criminals? Most of the Dekalb Police force is minority anyway. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Are you implying that people are getting shot only because of the color of their skin? I know this might be hard for the left-leaning mind to absorb... but perhaps those that were shot were engaging in violent criminal activity against innocent people and/or the police.

[SLUDoubleDeuce]

More disturbing from the same article;

Concern over police shootings was running high in the Atlanta area before the incident. This month in suburban DeKalb County, prosecutors asked a grand jury to review police investigations of 12 fatal officer-involved shootings since Jan. 1. Nearly all of the suspects killed by the county police were black.

An average of one fatal shooting per month? And almost all of the victims are black? I'm sure all of the shootings were justified and all of the officers felt threatened and had to repond with lethal force - but why does it happen only when they are interacting with the black population? Perhaps it's the new affirmative action program in DeKalb County....
Can't understand why blacks get a little nervous when they're pulled over for a routine traffic stop.

Were those the only fatal officer involved shootings? Or are those the only ones they want to investigate? If all shooting are being investigated then I say fine. But if they are only investigating the shootings involving white officers and black suspects, then it would look like the intentions behind the investigation may be suspect.

Would a shooting between white officers and white suspects, or black officers and black suspects, cause alarm or is the only reason that Rev. Al and Jesse are in front of the cameras because the two parties are of different races? Would they be similarly outraged if the parties in the NY incident were reversed? I tend to think not.

[laxfan25]

can we see the links?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation ... -headlines

The NY thing is tragic, 50 bullets is alarming. Didn't the victims did ram the police vehicle (and an officer?) with their car?

The problem is, it was 4 AM, and the officer was undercover and the police minvan was unmarked. One could imagine that the victims thought it might have been a holdup, carjacking, etc. Shooting 50 times seems a little excessive, especially when there was no weapon. Supposedly one officer got off 30 shots, which means he even had to reload.


The 88 y/o...i would bet and almost guarantee that the police announced their presence when they entered the residence.

From what I could surmise, the warrant was one where the cops did not have to announce first.

[laxfan25]

Were those the only fatal officer involved shootings? Or are those the only ones they want to investigate? If all shooting are being investigated then I say fine. But if they are only investigating the shootings involving white officers and black suspects, then it would look like the intentions behind the investigation may be suspect.

I believe the 12 officer-involved shootings since Jan 1 are all of them, it says that almost all involved black victims. I'm sure they are investigating why deadly force was called for in the cases. Were they involved in criminal activity? Possibly. What were the crimes/ Driving with a taillight out? B&E? Are these all capital offenses carrying the death penalty, with the cop as judge, jury and executioner? I certainly don't know all the facts of the cases, but on the surface there appears to be a disturbing pattern, and one that I hope is honestly investigated.

Would a shooting between white officers and white suspects, or black officers and black suspects, cause alarm or is the only reason that Rev. Al and Jesse are in front of the cameras because the two parties are of different races? Would they be similarly outraged if the parties in the NY incident were reversed? I tend to think not.

I think the reason for alarm is the brutally excessive nature of the response. 50 rounds going off, when none were forthcoming from the victim's car, seems a bit over the top. I understand that they ran their car into the undercover officer - how hard? Did he suffer any injuries asa a result? A strange car then pulls up and blocks your way - no police lights on it, just guys coming out and opening fire.

If roles were reversed, there would be more than a little outrage -maybe not from Sharpton/Jackson, but others to be sure. The sad fact is, it happens way more in this manner, white cops reacting harshly to minority suspects.

[Sonny]

If you don't know the facts of the cases.. They why are you speculating as to the intent of the policemen involved?

[StrykerFSU]

The officers in the NY shooting included 2 blacks, 2 Latinos, and one white. I heard on the radio that one of the officers sustained a significant injury to his knee.

The five cops who opened fire insist they saw a fourth man, wearing a beige jacket, hop out of the car as the fusillade began. Two civilians - a man and a woman - who did not see the shooting said they saw a man wearing a beige jacket run from the scene.

The cops said they thought one of the men in the car had a gun - raising the possibility that the fleeing man was armed and dumped the weapon as he ran off. Officers were spotted Tuesday searching the area around the shooting scene for a firearm.

As the night wore on, an undercover officer inside the club spotted a man dressed in black carrying what the officer believed was a gun. He immediately called his supervisor, Lt. Gary Napoli - who was outside with other plainclothes officers - and reported there might be an armed man inside.

The club closed not long after, at 4 a.m. Saturday, and an undercover officer spotted the man in black get into a heated argument out front with Bell and his friends. The officer said he grew alarmed when he overheard Guzman yell, "Yo, get my gun!" sources have said.

The officer decided to break cover and charged toward the car with his gun drawn and badge displayed. Bell slammed on the gas pedal, striking the officer, who then opened fire.

LINK TO NY POST ARTICLE

The officers in Atlanta knocked on the door even though it was a no-knock warrant and entered only after no one answered. After entering, they were fired upon by the elderly woman. All three officers were struck by bullets, one was hit three times. They found marijuana in the house.

Both of these shootings should be fully investigated and undoubtedly will be. What does not help the situation is the race baiters (really, how does Sharpton sleep at night?) inciting the crowds to gain more face time on the cable news. People like Sharpton pray on the poor and ignorant to increase their own power within those communities and are enablers in the worst sense of the word. Rather than acknowledge that the victims in these shootings may share in the blame, Sharpton and company find it easier and more politically expedient to point the finger at the police.

I think that one could argue a lot of political points using these shootings as evidence but in my opinion, the police officers involved will be shown to have acted appropriately.

[Danny Hogan]

can we see the links?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation ... -headlines

The NY thing is tragic, 50 bullets is alarming. Didn't the victims did ram the police vehicle (and an officer?) with their car?

The problem is, it was 4 AM, and the officer was undercover and the police minvan was unmarked. One could imagine that the victims thought it might have been a holdup, carjacking, etc. Shooting 50 times seems a little excessive, especially when there was no weapon. Supposedly one officer got off 30 shots, which means he even had to reload.


The 88 y/o...i would bet and almost guarantee that the police announced their presence when they entered the residence.

From what I could surmise, the warrant was one where the cops did not have to announce first.

the warrant said they didn't have to knock...i guarantee they announced themselves as law enforcement. the woman was killed because she shot 3 cops.

i don't see in the article that they actually found any drugs though.

they way that the article is worded makes it seem like they are investigating 12 deadly-force cases since jan 1...not the 12 deadly force cases since jan 1. i take that as a selection of the cases, but i could be wrong.

[Danny Hogan]

stryker beat my post...a few questions answered

[sohotrightnow]

Interesting case going on in NY. Thank Allah I turn in to Faux News to get a fair and balanced perspective, where Bill O'Reilly had a guest explain that it is very easy to shoot 50 rounds while under duress against an unarmed person.

[Danny Hogan]

they were without guns, but they were using their car as a weapon. 50 is still high though.

[StrykerFSU]

50 shots appears high to us and makes for a great headline but I think we should allow the investigation to take place before deciding for ourselves whether the use of deadly force was appropriate.

I venture to guess that most of us have never handled a gun or, like myself, got to shoot .22 rifles at summer camp when they were kids. Sure, 50 shots sounds like a lot in that context but it might not seem like so many if you have a car bearing down on you being driven by three suspects who announced their intent to go to their car and get their gun.

[laxfan25]

they way that the article is worded makes it seem like they are investigating 12 deadly-force cases since jan 1...not the 12 deadly force cases since jan 1. i take that as a selection of the cases, but i could be wrong.

You're speculating there Danny!
There have been 12 fatal shootings since Jan 1...

DeKalb DA wants grand jury to review cop shootings cases

By Mae Gentry The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/22/06

DeKalb County's district attorney will ask a grand jury to review Police Department investigations of a string of deadly shootings.
"We are planning to ask the grand jury to review [the cases] under their civil investigation powers," District Attorney Gwen Keyes Fleming said Tuesday.
The grand jury could recommend whether criminal charges should be filed and investigate Police Department procedures in the shootings, she said.
Since January, DeKalb officers have fatally shot 12 suspects, more than any other police department in metro Atlanta.
A 13th suspect died in custody after being subdued with pepper spray and a baton, and one officer was shot to death by a suspect.

As to why I'm speculating - it's because things like this look suspicious - and it's one of my civil rights.
It's not like speculating about criminal cases hasn't occupied the forum before. I think there was another case that generated about 40 pages of speculation and opinion.

[WaterBoy]

I don't think I understand this new fad with assuming that police officers are racially motivated or fundamentally prone to excessive force. I understand the merits of questioning authority, but I think that taking it to the hyperbolic extreme before we know much about the cases is borderline socially irresponsible.

Want an example? Look at this thread. It's titled "Outrage of the Day." I like the title, I think it's catchy- but it immediately assumes that an outrage has in fact been committed. I can even see that there is room for raised eyebrows in the New York case- though I don't think as much to the extent that people might try to carry it. The fact that police officers use force is not linked to the idea that they're doing something wrong.

Please recall that hindsight is significantly clearer than perception in the moment. The NY officers overheard one of the suspects saying "get my gun," which I interpret to be a reasonable interpretation that there was a gun somewhere in the area or in possession of one of the individuals. The test for validation of police use of force is legally one of "Totality of the circumstances, which means that everything the police officers experienced before one of them tried to run down an officer comes into play. Personally, if someone tried to run me down with a car after I had identified myself as an officer, I don't think I would ponder long on the use of deadly force.

In both of these cases, though not mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the officers identified themselves as such and were not the initiators of deadly force. Using an automobile to strike an officer (at least in California) constitutes assualt with a deadly weapon. I would doubt that it's any different in New York or Georgia. I think that in the case of the 88 year old woman, the deadly force is a little clearer.

I also don't think I understand the importance of the person being 88. I don't care if someone is black, white, asian, or purple with green spots- if they open fire on police officers, they've made a decision and can live (or not) with the consequences. If granny is spry enough to not only fire a weapon, but also score five hits, I would argue then that it doesn't matter how old that she is, but rather that she's clearly a threat that needs to be stopped, in this case with justifiable deadly force.

In the case of the NY shooting, it's a little difficult to judge exactly what happened, I will admit that personally I didn't find anything that was amazingly revealing on all the aspects of exactly what happened. I do know that shootings while a person is in a vehicle are fairly difficult to gauge. In most areas, officers are trained that when they open fire on a suspect, they're supposed to continue fire until the suspect drops- something that seems like it would be a little hard to gauge in a car when the suspect is seated and literally unable to "drop" their weapon of choice. If there is something that needs to be taken into account in this case, it's not that the shooting occurred, but possibly that it involved 50 shots with 5 officers present, and as was stated, 30 from one officer, which means he reloaded once.

Football coaches in the NFL carry a "chart" (of recent fame) to help them make decision in regards to extra points or two point conversions. Should we have our officers carry a chart to determine their use of force based upon race or age? "Sorry, Jim, it doesn't matter if he's shooting at you, you can't return fire because he's over 65 and his grandfather was black- and that square is green." Race doesn't really strike me as a motivator in this case, it strikes me as an instrument to give people something to talk about.

I guess my big issue comes from the immediate assumption that some outrage has been committed. Why is it an outrage? Is it because it was black man on the day of his wedding and an 88 year old black woman gunned down in her home? It certainly sounds that way when that's all we hear- I think that a raised eyebrow at the least would be a sound reaction.

What about when it's reported leaving out the description of the suspects? A person was killed by officers after trying to run over police officers with his vehicle, and a person was killed by officers serving a warrant after they opened fire and wounded three officers.