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I don't know... still seems like a myth to me...

Have we already discussed this topic before? It is just deja vu.

Anyone who's read State of Fear knows that global warming is a myth, this is old news!

Maybe you should read the article and then look at my avatar and determine for yourself if I was being sarcastic when I named the subject of this topic.

From the article linked at the start of this thread:

For all but the most recent 150 years, the academy scientists relied on "proxy" evidence from tree rings, corals, glaciers and ice cores, cave deposits, ocean and lake sediments, boreholes and other sources. They also examined indirect records such as paintings of glaciers in the Alps.

While I have little doubt that we all do damage to this great planet (and our bodies) daily, with depleted soil, polluted air and chlorinated drinking water. . . it's hard to really embrace the "science" behind global temperature estimates from centuries ago---especially when I hear they are using 150 year old paintings of the Alps.

I live in Washington State. . .I could use a little extra heat up here. . .

PLULax wrote:While I have little doubt that we all do damage to this great planet (and our bodies) daily, with depleted soil, polluted air and chlorinated drinking water. . . it's hard to really embrace the "science" behind global temperature estimates from centuries ago---especially when I hear they are using 150 year old paintings of the Alps.

I live in Washington State. . .I could use a little extra heat up here. . .

I'm sick of these pointy-head "scientists" with their PhDs and experiments telling me their latest scare theories. Yeah. That's right. Just a measly "theory". If you believe that one, you might as well believe that people descended from monkeys through millions of years of natural selection, or that there is some invisible force named "gravity" that keeps us from flying off into space.

Besides, everyone knows global warming is just a scam by the powerful climatologist lobby aimed at crushing the defenseless oil and auto industries. Those tweedy professors just want more taxpayer money for blinged-out weather balloons and for the non-stop partying research scientist lifestyle.

Research science! WOO HOO! You haven't been to a party until you see how the Ocean Sciences Conference gets down. Kidding aside, at least I have that fat paycheck to look forward to...I'm now going to go slam my office door on my head.

Hackalicious wrote:

PLULax wrote:While I have little doubt that we all do damage to this great planet (and our bodies) daily, with depleted soil, polluted air and chlorinated drinking water. . . it's hard to really embrace the "science" behind global temperature estimates from centuries ago---especially when I hear they are using 150 year old paintings of the Alps.

I live in Washington State. . .I could use a little extra heat up here. . .

I'm sick of these pointy-head "scientists" with their PhDs and experiments telling me their latest scare theories. Yeah. That's right. Just a measly "theory". If you believe that one, you might as well believe that people descended from monkeys through millions of years of natural selection, or that there is some invisible force named "gravity" that keeps us from flying off into space.

Besides, everyone knows global warming is just a scam by the powerful climatologist lobby aimed at crushing the defenseless oil and auto industries. Those tweedy professors just want more taxpayer money for blinged-out weather balloons and for the non-stop partying research scientist lifestyle.

Nobody messes with the climatology lobby... they're just too, too powerful.

What's the solution?

If there is a problem (which I do believe there is), what's the solution? I have seen studies that say methane from from our cattle have provided at least 20% of the green house gas trapping methane. Other's say we'll still have a depleting o-zone for the next 20 years if we stopped our production of greenhouse gases as a world today... Who knows... Can we be more responsible, absolutely... but how many of the people saying we have a problem are taking the bus to work?

Again, I really what the proposed solution? I could be wrong, but I suspect as a planet, we're growing in population (and therefore consumption). Now I could be wrong there, but people are living longer, and still having babies... even babies are having babies. With that comes more consumption, meat, electricity, oxygen, whatever... As I see it there are two major options... We can either slow down our growth as a population or cut back our use of resources we use (aiming to cutback on their ill-effects).

Neither seem like they can be done independently to solve the "problem." Maybe we need a combination of the two (still pretty impossible), or to have a miracle in science, and solve the problem chemically.

The solution is something as opposed to nothing.

Allowing people and businesses to self regulate is clearly not working. I support conservative business practices but this is one that clearly is not working. If left to our own devices, people will not take the time to care about emissions. As much as I dislike government regulation, it might be necessary on a state by state level with this situation.

OK, What happened to the glaciers? What caused the "big chill" that gave us those? Was there global warming that melted the glaciers? People seem to be concerned about a little ice cap meltage but it seems to me it happened before. Could some of the O&A people try to educate me on this.

I can buy the fact it is getting warmer but I don't know if we are jumping to conclusions to say what causes it and if there won't be some other self correcting factor.

I heard that the EPA is being sued to force them to regulate CO2 emissions from vehicles. I guess we should be concerned about our own CO2 emissions not to mention methane.......

Global climate is a very comlicated system and our attempts to model it are full of assumptions that are made in an effort to simplify things. It is true that the planet goes through cycles of warming and cooling on time scales of 100,000s to 1,000,000s of years. These cycles are controlled by a combination of many factors including orbital variation (Milankovitch cycles), atmospheric composition, the sun's luminosity, and countless other large and small scale processes.

On a planet devoid of human influence, these cylces would continue and speices would adapt or become extinct and be replaced by new species. Many contrarians use the planet's history of warming and cooling as evidence that our current period of global warming is just another part of that cycle. Unfortunately, there is one glaring hole in that logic. The activities of humans have greatly upset the balance that is inherent in natural cycles.

Carbon dioxide was once the second most abundant molecule in the atmosphere after nitrogen. Then life began and with it came the process of photosynthesis which began converting all of this inorganic carbon to biological material and over the course of about 3 billion years our atmosphere reached its present day composition. So what happened to all of that biological material? It was locked up underground in the form of what we call fossil fuels. Under natural processes, this carbon would remain underground until brought to the surface by geologic process oer hundreds of millions of years. Now, as humans continue to extract and burn these fossil fuels we are returning all of that carbon to the atmosphere at an extremely fast rate.

I can buy the fact it is getting warmer but I don't know if we are jumping to conclusions to say what causes it and if there won't be some other self correcting factor.

There is a correcting factor...the ocean absorbs carbon dioxide. There's only one problem, the ocean has already absorbed half of the carbon dioxide produced since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and in the process used about one third of its absorption capacity (Sabine et al, 2004). One side effect is the acidification of ocean waters. More acidic seawater makes it more difficult makes it more difficult for organisms like corals to secret their calcium carbonate shells. Other affected organisms include some species of phytoplankton, the grass of the oceans, and we can expect to see effects further up the food chain as a result.

I'll leave the images of flooded cities to political blowhards like Al Gore. I don't know if the oceans will rise 2 inches or 20 feet but in my opinion, and in the opinion of the overwhelming majority of scientific articles in peer-reviewed journals, global warming is real.

StrykerFSU wrote:There is a correcting factor...the ocean absorbs carbon dioxide. There's only one problem, the ocean has already absorbed half of the carbon dioxide produced since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and in the process used about one third of its absorption capacity (Sabine et al, 2004). One side effect is the acidification of ocean waters. More acidic seawater makes it more difficult makes it more difficult for organisms like corals to secret their calcium carbonate shells. Other affected organisms include some species of phytoplankton, the grass of the oceans, and we can expect to see effects further up the food chain as a result.

I'll leave the images of flooded cities to political blowhards like Al Gore. I don't know if the oceans will rise 2 inches or 20 feet but in my opinion, and in the opinion of the overwhelming majority of scientific articles in peer-reviewed journals, global warming is real.

As an avid SCUBA diver, yes we still dive in Minnesota, I welcome the flooded coastal cities. Im sick of just looking at ships, fish and coral. Buildings here I come!! Although the bleaching of coral makes me want to take more action. Just remember people, NEVER EVER EVER break off a piece of coral that is still alive. Loose stuff is fine, but it can take hundreds of years to grow just a small amount and youre ruining something I havent seen yet. As we say in the dive industry; take only pictures, leave only bubbles and kill only time.

Stryker, thanks for the info. I feel like I should apply for continuing ed credits now. To paraphrase another problem, is there a way to get the "genie back into the bottle?" Are there any mechanisms that anyone has thought of to get the CO2 back out of the gaseous state? Besides the developing countries trying to emulate our ability to use up non-renewable resources, the large rainforests are being cut down. (I am assuming these do help to return the CO2 to biomass.) Should we be promoting breeder nuclear reactors for power generation and going all-electric? I have always understood that solar can't provide nearly enough. What do people think is the next step? As Carter found out, people do not want to cut back....

Sounds like something else Gates could do with his and Buffet's money.