LaxTV Forums | A Forum About The MCLA

I flew into this same Midway airport, one week ago today. Scary:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/09/D8ECQT8GC.html

So... this plane crashes, no one on the plane dies but yet, the plane slides in to an intersection and hits a car.

Now, who do you think is in the car? A rapist? A murderer? No... a family with small children. And the one death? A 7 year old boy.

I asked my class this morning, how do we justify the existence of a god in the face of injustice like this?

not something you expect to happen driving...scary stuff....and why does this need to turn into a discussion about god?

wheelz33 wrote:not something you expect to happen driving...scary stuff....and why does this need to turn into a discussion about god?

I agree

I've flown through Midway before, but I never noticed a way for a jet to slide off of the runway into traffic. I feel like that shouldn't be the case at most airports. Is there something else to this story that I don't know?

I have no idea on what caused the accident. But I do know that Midway, the original Chicago-area airport, is much smaller then O'Hare (& many other urban airports). Only certain types of commercial aircraft can fly into Midway because they have shorter runaways. (The large jets have to fly into O'Hare.)

DanGenck wrote:So... this plane crashes, no one on the plane dies but yet, the plane slides in to an intersection and hits a car.

Now, who do you think is in the car? A rapist? A murderer? No... a family with small children. And the one death? A 7 year old boy.

I asked my class this morning, how do we justify the existence of a god in the face of injustice like this?

What was their response?

Code: Select all

<img src ="http://www.ohare.com/cnrc/midway/airport_layout_diagram_gifpage.shtm">

Ok, so I can't get the dang picture to come up!!!

From Sonny's picture, LUV 1248 was landing KMDW 31R[ight] with is 5141 feet. The other parallel runways are 31C[enter] at 5521 feet and 31L[eft] at 3859 feet. 31L is not an option for a 737. If I remember, a 737 needs about 4000 feet of runway give or take the model. New -700s may need 4500 feet.

So it looks like, from the diagram, there is less than 100 feet from the threshold of 13L to the fence and W 55th St. I'm guessing that the nose of the A/C is sitting in the intersection of W 55th and S. Lotus St.

It will be interesting to find out what the braking action was as reported by the A/C that preceded LUV 1248 on 31R. Initial reports I heard was that he was about 140kts at 1700 which is decision height (go/ no go) but then I heard something about 180kts which is way too fast for landing but I don't have an altitude reference on that statement. Vref for a 737-500 at 60000kg with flaps 40° is 140kts and with flaps 15° is 154kts. As weight decreases, so does V speed. I checked the NTSB database but they don't have any factual/preliminary reports up later than Dec 2nd.

This sort of thing is not suprising though. When I was stationed in Florida, we based out of Opa Locka (KOPF) which is in the middle of a neighborhood type area and I saw a Gulfstream go through the fence and end up on home plate of a kids ball field that abutted the airport. Houston Hobby(KHOU) is right in the middle of a residential/business area of the city. Dallas-Ft Worth(KDFW) is the same way. When my father began flying out of KDFW, it was in the middle of nothing and the old Southwest arport was just to the south of it. Now the airport is surrounded and resident locked. He used to drive an hour and a half to work but he kept moving closer to the airport and now it's a five minute drive with no traffic and 35-40 minutes in the morning rush. That's the way things go. LaGuardia is the same too.

mbuff wrote:

From Sonny's picture, LUV 1248 was landing KMDW 31R[ight] with is 5141 feet. The other parallel runways are 31C[enter] at 5521 feet and 31L[eft] at 3859 feet. 31L is not an option for a 737. If I remember, a 737 needs about 4000 feet of runway give or take the model. New -700s may need 4500 feet.

So it looks like, from the diagram, there is less than 100 feet from the threshold of 13L to the fence and W 55th St. I'm guessing that the nose of the A/C is sitting in the intersection of W 55th and S. Lotus St.

It will be interesting to find out what the braking action was as reported by the A/C that preceded LUV 1248 on 31R. Initial reports I heard was that he was about 140kts at 1700 which is decision height (go/ no go) but then I heard something about 180kts which is way too fast for landing but I don't have an altitude reference on that statement. Vref for a 737-500 at 60000kg with flaps 40° is 140kts and with flaps 15° is 154kts. As weight decreases, so does V speed. I checked the NTSB database but they don't have any factual/preliminary reports up later than Dec 2nd.

This sort of thing is not suprising though. When I was stationed in Florida, we based out of Opa Locka (KOPF) which is in the middle of a neighborhood type area and I saw a Gulfstream go through the fence and end up on home plate of a kids ball field that abutted the airport. Houston Hobby(KHOU) is right in the middle of a residential/business area of the city. Dallas-Ft Worth(KDFW) is the same way. When my father began flying out of KDFW, it was in the middle of nothing and the old Southwest arport was just to the south of it. Now the airport is surrounded and resident locked. He used to drive an hour and a half to work but he kept moving closer to the airport and now it's a five minute drive with no traffic and 35-40 minutes in the morning rush. That's the way things go. LaGuardia is the same too.

Nodding my head and thinking to myself, "Huh? mbuff speaking in plane language. Oh, yeah, I remembered that his father flies planes."

I am also wondering if the front wheel of the plane broke off when landing hard may be a partial factor, wouldn't it? That plane would have no problem landing at TSTC Airport, but the Waco Airport is smaller.

Brent,

He retired in on October 31st . So that ends all of my good simulator time at an unnamed major airline. I did my last stint with ATC in '91 but I should be about spot on as far as what it takes to get on on the ground.

I think TSTC has a 6000 foot runway and another that's shorter. We took a TSTC student up for a 727 ride a couple of years ago and he told me about it. I know that W flys in and out of there in 60s.

Give up the secret code Benson

From some of the stuff I've read/seen, it sounds like (or at least the media was twisting it) the plane shouldn't have been landing due to weather, but they went with it anyway. Either way this is a terrible incident.

When I got home, I heard a Chi-town resident say that the plane was in the middle of 55th & Central so that puts LUV on the center runway. ATC said that braking action was FAIR for the first 2/3 and POOR at the last 1/3. Braking action is reported as:
GOOD
FAIR
POOR
NIL

Reported- the road is 280 feet from the threshold of the runway. Usually overruns at airports that land what are considered Heavy A/C have overruns of 1000 feet.

In addition, KMDW and KORD have noise abatement procedures in effect so that is going to affect takeoffs & approaches. Both of those airports have blast barriers all over the place to cut down on the noise.

I agree that it was a bad incident because a small child was killed but in perspective, it could have been a whole heck of a lot worse had the A/C slid sideways, caught a wing and tore into a fuel line and went flaming through that fence. I remember a couple of years ago, a UAL A/C going through the fence and ending up parking the nose in an intersection just short of a gas station. That was in California I think.

Timbalaned wrote:

DanGenck wrote:So... this plane crashes, no one on the plane dies but yet, the plane slides in to an intersection and hits a car.

Now, who do you think is in the car? A rapist? A murderer? No... a family with small children. And the one death? A 7 year old boy.

I asked my class this morning, how do we justify the existence of a god in the face of injustice like this?

What was their response?

Any response you can imagine. The best answer was probably, "Maybe that child would have grown up to do something horrible and this was God's way of stepping in to stop it".

Which made me wonder later, wouldn't that offer very little comfort to the parents of that child? I'd bet the father of the boy would punch you in the face for saying something like that to him... I sure would...

mbuff wrote:When I got home, I heard a Chi-town resident say that the plane was in the middle of 55th & Central so that puts LUV on the center runway. ATC said that braking action was FAIR for the first 2/3 and POOR at the last 1/3. Braking action is reported as:
GOOD
FAIR
POOR
NIL

I agree that it was a bad incident because a small child was killed but in perspective, it could have been a whole heck of a lot worse had the A/C slid sideways, caught a wing and tore into a fuel line and went flaming through that fence. I remember a couple of years ago, a UAL A/C going through the fence and ending up parking the nose in an intersection just short of a gas station. That was in California I think.

I believe that was at Burbank Airport in 2001 or 2000 (at least that's what they were saying on the radio here). Ironically it happened on the same day. Note to self: no flying on Dec. 8th...

I'm not surprised about the breaking changing to POOR. Landing in those kind of weather conditions is often tricky. The folks up in the tower have to go off of what the ground crew tells them about runway conditions (correct me if I'm wrong mbuff. At least that's what I remember from my Dad's time at Detroit Metro). Guppies (aka 737's) are pretty reliable planes that can take a beating.

I'm just glad things didn't play out like you described. With these smaller airports getting penned in by residential housing it's a wonder more accidents like this haven't happened. I'm reminded of the UAL flight coming down for an emergency landing in Iowa (I think) where the plane cartwheeled and broke in half. Fortunately the runway was surrounded by cornfields.