Obama's march to the middle continues!!!

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Postby Zeuslax on Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:08 am

If you, as a small business owner, don't pass along those taxes to the end user consumer - you aren't a smart business person and won't be in business for very long. One more dollar in extra taxes is one less dollar you can pay an employee or reinvest in your business. One more dollar in additional taxes is one less dollar you can use to hire an extra employee or add an extra shift.


I agree with your statement somewhat, but it is a generalization in a major way. One less tax dollar is also another round of golf, a new sports car, another vacation, another 5 start dinner, etc.......There's the Stosel Theory that this in turn benifits all. For example, if a wealthy person makes more money they'll buy a yacht and the construction of that yacht takes a company that employees 12 people..........trickle down economics.

Many have called Dr. Marcia Angell's positions on the US health care system, drug companies and her critics of alternative medicine as extremist.


I'm not sure that your arguement isn't perception as well. Her arguements for fixing the system could be left leaning. However, the outlining of what really goes on and the description of the issues with the current system are universally accepted.

The research to price arguement is virtually a myth. Universities are mostly picking up the tab with "sponsorship".
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Postby StrykerFSU on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:14 am

Zeuslax wrote:The research to price arguement is virtually a myth. Universities are mostly picking up the tab with "sponsorship".


Not necessarily true. Look at the drug Taxol...

Holton remembers Suffness telling him that the NCI (National Cancer Institute) was getting out of the Taxol business. It had become the tail wagging the dog—there simply was no way the government could justify the enormous costs of keeping Taxol in the pipeline. By 1988, developing Taxol had cost the NCI over $25 million. Other promising compounds were getting squeezed out of the competition because of this single, impossible-to-get molecule. It was time for the NCI to bail on Taxol.

In other words, the government was eager to find a deep-pocket pharmaceutical company willing to take a chance on turning Taxol into a marketable drug. Thanks to a novel tool Congress had just created via the Federal Technology Transfer Act of 1986, Suffness & Co. could legally hand over the commercial rights to Taxol—a substance found and then preened all the way to the market's front door by taxpayer dollars—to any private company the NCI chose.

In August 1989, the agency advertised that it had a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) to grant the company submitting the best proposal. Four companies rose to the bait, including Rhone-Poulenc which held the French Taxol patents, and the New Jersey-based pharmaceutical giant, Bristol-Myers, soon destined to merge with Squibb, another huge pharma. To no one's real surprise, in December, the CRADA went to Bristol.

The decision would be second-guessed for a few years to come—in fact becoming the focus of a Congressional hearing in 1991—but the fact was that Bristol-Myers had done its homework. It helped that the company had built a good track record in working with the feds on a previous drug, DDI, an early treatment for AIDS. But the company's proposal to the NCI chieftains showed that it had thoroughly investigated Taxol's number-one problem—the supply dilemma—and had worked out detailed plans for dealing with it. One of the rounds in Bristol's chamber was what it had learned from talking to the folks down in Tallahassee.

Handed the keys to Taxol, Bristol took off. The company consolidated control over the entire bark collection and compound extraction apparatus out west, picking up the NCI's contract with the Boulder, Colorado-based Hauser Chemical Research Corporation. Then, on April Fool's Day, 1990, the company signed a contract that changed forever not only the future of Taxol, but of Florida State University and one of the most fortunate faculty members ever to set foot on a college campus.

Although FSU officials couldn't know it at the time, they had just brokered the deal of a research university's lifetime. Bristol-Myers Squibb was handed an exclusive licensing agreement to use Bob Holton's spanking new semisynthesis patent plus any related patents that his research might cook up over the next five years. In exchange, FSU was entitled to royalties on any money Bristol made using any of its Taxol patents, and Holton got a five-year research collaboration deal with Bristol chemists worth $1.7 million.

FSU also got Bristol to agree to cover all costs associated with patenting anything Holton's lab came up with, including Taxol derivatives. At the time the agreement was signed there were no such animals. But Holton knew they were right around the corner. His relentless pursuit of total synthesis, now stoked with new money, would most likely generate a bunch of them, and soon.


Without undue fanfare, in January 1993, Taxol—now officially trademarked as a Bristol product—made its debut in cancer pharmacology. Trumpeted as the most important cancer—fighting drug to come along in two decades, Taxol finally stood—a fully fledged cancer drug—before the world's marketplace.

From bark to business, the molecule's development had taken 31 years, had cost the government roughly $32 million, and had already hit up its foster parents, Bristol-Myers Squibb, for 10 times that in ramp-up costs. Before 1993 ended, a single gram of the new drug was selling for $5,846. Taxol was hobnobbing with the priciest potions ever made.


http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/fall2002/taxol.html

Without big Pharm, Taxol would never have made it to market and people would have died. It is that simple. FSU did not support the research beyond providing a lab space but has received hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties. If companies are going to be attacked for huge profits then the universities should be as well.

Back on topic...just 20 minutes ago on NPR, Juan Williams was commenting about Sen. Obama needing to define what he believes in because no one can tell after his FISA and Iraq reversals.
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Postby Dr. Jason Stockton on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:40 am

StrykerFSU wrote:Doc,
Not to distract from Obama's newfound moderate beliefs but I need to ask something for clarification...

Whatever industry or business you are in you have costs and income right (unless you are not charging for a service)? A tax fits into the cost side of the ledger and you use income to pay for cost so if the government imposes a new tax on a company, say they want 5% of the profit from the widget market, the producer of widgets can either eat that 5% and cut into their own profit margin or they can pass that 5% on to the consumers of widgets...am I wrong?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to clarify what I meant.


Certainly no offense taken. I totallly understand what you are saying here, and you are correct. In the end, those taxes take their toll somewhere -- it's the cost of doing business.

And we've had this discussion here before. . .as taxes increase so does the cost of doing business. . .so small companies struggle, lay people off, take away benefits. . .and the big companies move to other countries or States with fewer corporate taxes. Michigan is a perfect example - they are in a world of hurt because they've made it so financially difficult on companies and their economy is a mess.

My point is that businesses have several "extra" taxes laid upon us - which differ from State to State and City to City. . .and I guess it just makes me crazy when people think that businesses do nothing but dive through tax loopholes and don't pay their fair share. It's quite the contrary.
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Postby Zeuslax on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:54 am

Not necessarily true. Look at the drug Taxol...


you are 100% correct. I wasn't trying to imply that it was 100% of the case. They are still conducting research at the tune of millions. This has been an evolution to the university umbrella though.

I also agree that the university arrangements should be critically scutinized, but you know those damn liberal universities are always working with big industry. This relation is discussed indepth in the book.

Back on topic...just 20 minutes ago on NPR, Juan Williams was commenting about Sen. Obama needing to define what he believes in because no one can tell after his FISA and Iraq reversals.


On FISA Obama replied to his supporters, but it is a major disappointment. Iraq is another animal waiting to get bigger. His FISA replies have been anemic at best and extremely disappointing.
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Postby Zeuslax on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:46 am

Here's a little medical and political talk from a Q&A session with McCain. Ties in to this discussion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6IlGXhCUHo&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/[/youtube]
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Postby FLALAX on Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:38 pm

Zeuslax,

That clip is about as relevant as this one in relation to this thread. Lets keep it on point and factual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvXz2xaLNMQ
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Postby Zeuslax on Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:38 pm

Zeuslax,

That clip is about as relevant as this one in relation to this thread. Lets keep it on point and factual.


Really? A discussion about the pharmaceutical industry and the candidates stances is equivalent to a racist satirical video. I enjoy sarcasm as much as the next person, but I think you should attempt to think a little deeper here.

The McCain response to that question is much deeper than your interpretation obviously. That simple question (and the answer to that little question) actually flushes opinions and positions on many major issues. Let me interpret how any candidates response to that question could be translated to positions on sex education, Medicare & Medicaid, medical insurance, abortion, religion, and economics to name a few.

Hence the stumbling and fumbling! They hire surrogates to maximize the amount of time and instances they can get their message out.
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