For The Bible Tells Me So

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Postby KnoxVegas on Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:55 pm

I stand corrected but still ask why we should not allow gays and lesbians to get married and how exactly does ruin the sanctity of marriage?
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Postby Beta on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:00 pm

KnoxVegas wrote:I stand corrected but still ask why we should not allow gays and lesbians to get married and how exactly does ruin the sanctity of marriage?


I find it amusing that people would prevent 2 people of the same sex from getting married due to the "sanctity" of marriage...but aren't also attacking/preventing anyone with $50 a taxi ride in Vegas from getting married.
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Postby Steno on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:23 pm

JW wrote:Leviticus also speaks out against it. Remember when Christ said

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets (their teaching); I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. FOr truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commmandments, and teach others to do the same , shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

While I believe the Bible speaks against homosexuality, I am not the one that condemns. My God is a God of love and grace. My Savior teaches that Love and grace and shows it by His sacrifice on the cross. My Jesus taught me to love everyone. I am not homophobic (working at Banana Republic will change that). They are people making a choice, just as i have made choices in my life. I will love them like my God told me to.


JW -
So this has been nagging at me, because how can Jesus say at once that we need to honor the code set forth in Leviticus, but people still don't get all fussed up about wearing wool with linen? If some sins are worse than others, or some laws more powerful than others, who chooses which to follow? You engaging in premarital sex is the same as committing sodomy by your own account, but which would you feel worse about? Why?

Also, I don't know which Bible you're getting your quotations from, but there is no Aramaic or Hebrew word for homosexual, so (going back to Coach Patton's post) how did the translator for your cited passage get that word? It was probably inferred from the context of the passage. An inference made by a fallible, sinful, individual not unlike you or me but wholly unlike God.

I pose these questions because here I sit at the age of 22 still trying to figure out my own spirituality, and it appears that you have given much thought to your own, so I'd like your insight.
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Postby KnoxVegas on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:33 pm

Beta wrote: find it amusing that people would prevent 2 people of the same sex from getting married due to the "sanctity" of marriage...but aren't also attacking/preventing anyone with $50 a taxi ride in Vegas from getting married.


Exactly.

Steno- Thanks for beating me to the same questions. Also, how are we supposed to love one another but while doing that, condemn some to death?
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Postby PigPen on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:55 pm

Apparently, we are all sinners for one reason or another .... even those (seemingly!) pious people who point at gays and call them "deviant" have their own sins to account for ... So, as far as "sin" goes I think we're all in that boat ..... !


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Postby JW on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:05 am

I understand your questions, and thank you for them. I believe it is important for the Body of Believers to discuss this and seek God for the wisdom.

I am using the New American Standard Bible. It is the translation that is widely used by Evangelicals. I have not done enough study in the ancient languages to know if that is accurate, so i must take him at his word.

"A man shall not lie with another man as one lies with a woman." That is how Leviticus is discussed.

You are absolutely right in saying that my sin is no greater than that of anyone else. I would say that Christ makes the difference in my life. The Holy Spirit shows me the difference between right and wrong. My own judgement caused me to sin. The Holy Spirit caused me to confess that sin. I believe that my God has the power to conquer all sin.

It would be hard to say. I have told a lie, and I felt just as bad about that Lie as I did about that act of premarital sex. I believe that because God views them all the same, He allows us to feel an equal amount of pressure and shame for them, and each are equally forgiven.

Knox,
If God intends for a Man to leave his family and cleave to a woman, and that to be the form of marriage, then by divorcing, commiting adultery, or having Homosexual marriage, that is breaking, not ruining, the sanctity of marriage.

Steno,
I have thought a lot about my life and who I am as a new Creation in Christ. I encourage you to continue looking up, look to God for your wisdom and don't allow the influences of this world to guide your decision making or your wisdom.

I have more to write but i have to go to work.

I pray that everyone has a safe and glorious day.
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Postby TheBearcatHimself on Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:09 pm

JW wrote:"A man shall not lie with another man as one lies with a woman." That is how Leviticus is discussed.


You came really close to hitting the nail on the head here, but you stopped your thought. Leviticus discusses homosexuality with a cruel, bitter tone, as it discusses many moral issues. The God of the Old Testament is a cruel and bitter God, founded in the cruel and bitter times for Jews in Ancient Egypt, Babylon, and Canaan. In order for the race to survive, strict moral codes had to be enforced, thus a strict and cruel God, unforgiving of any moral transgression that may threaten the race's survival.

The God that you speak of JW, is the God of the New Testament, founded in the times of the Romans and afterward. While these times were tough compared with our modern society, they were a far cry from the harsh past and the teachings of Christ and the words of God he speaks are founded in a cultural and moral reality that was much more forgiving. The only mention of homosexuals in the New Testament is by Paul, in the letter to the Corinthians and it is very brief. And much as you idealistically speak of, this God is forgiving of all, however this God does not condemn homosexuals as you say.

In order to understand what your God actually is asking for, you need to acknowledge the social and cultural histories in which these stories were created. They are temporally unique, and should not be extended to modern times. This is the point of the movie, and why Steno is fighting the good fight by educating more people.
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Postby Beta on Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:47 pm

Verse in question:

Corinthians 6:9

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


That's from the New International Version.
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Postby MBlax327 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:57 pm

I am no Bible scholar, nor do i have any idea what exact words are written in the American Constitution about this kind of thing, but didn't the founding fathers and the framers of the constitution set the whole schabang up so that the discussions of what a religious institution says is not a part of the discussion on whether or not something should be allowed within our legal system?
Although JW's faith is absolutely admirable and well thought out, and Steno and the Bearcat both have astonishingly good points to make about the nature of the bible and the text written therein, isn't the bigger question why the sanctity of marriage would be threatened outside of the Christian interpretation, and within the boundaries set forth in the constitution itself?

just a thought-
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Postby BB on Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:46 pm

JW wrote:

Knox, thanks for your discussion, but I will disagree with one point.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. When they sinned in the Garden by eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, the image was defaced (Genesis 3:6). The image of God that was placed on them during creation was defaced by their sin. It is because of the sin of man that we have disease, war, murder, etc. In a perfect world God intended on a Man leaving his mother and father and cleaving to a woman (Genesis 2:24).



At this point the image of God is placed on us, but only through belief in Jesus Christ. Man is not born inherantly good and learns to be evil. Man is born inherantly evil, and only through the saving grace of Jesus at Calvary can man recieve that image of God.

When Adam and Eve sinned, relationships were messed up completely. The way that relationships were supposed to be, Man and woman only being sexually active within the bounds of marriage (Unfortunately i was unable to keep this law - premarital sex) was ruined. God would not tell us that we could not do something, be in a Homosexual relationship, and then put that desire in our heart. God would not tell me to commit murder then tell me to commit murder. When I had sex before being married, it was not God telling me to do it, it was Satan.

I know that we would like to make everyone feel better by saying that people were created to be Homosexual, but that would just go against everything natural about what sex is supposed to be. Sex is supposed to be for the purposes of producing children. Humans have made it about pleasure.

I can't claim scientific data, just Biblical. My God is perfect, unfortunately because of sin in this world the creation of a child is not. Only through obedience to God and belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can we have the image of God bestowed upon us. I am not perfect, never will be, but only because of Jesus Christ do I have hope of that perfection when I am one day living in the New Jerusalem.

Like I said, I don't believe that engaging ing Homosexuality is Biblical, but that does not change the fact that they are people that God desires a relationship with. God loves them, and so do I.

Leviticus 20:13 " 'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. "

Romans 1:26-27 - Because the disobeyed God and looked to become wise of the world, "26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Just a couple of more references that I found, to support my Biblical Theology.

Hope everyone is having a great night.


I don't believe any of this mumbo jumbo. I am sure you are a nice guy and care about humanity, and your god, and wouldn't be one of the nutcases protesting funerals but really, I don't understand the strongly religious and I do apologize for that but there are just billions of hypocracies in the bible, and christianity. Not to mention playing the 'telephone" game for 4000 years through storytelling, and numerouse language translations. I wish I did, it would be great to blindly believe without any facts, and not worry about the whatafter.

God is infallible, and then creates man, who is imperfect? If he is infallible and omnipotent he/she/it should be able to do "literally anything" including looking beyond our sins and be able to see us, seems masochistic to have to send himself/son to be killed to take our sins away when if all powerful he should be able to do whatever he pleases.

Man didn't take sex out of Marriage god did by making it soo much fun, if anyone is to blame. Otherwise he would have just made sex boring unless wedded, and then only fun with females.

It was Satan thats right... I forgot our omnipotent god couldn't deal with an upstart of an angel, totally forgot about that. Our omnipotent god just had to let the whipper snapper (satan) have a voice in the humanity god had created by getting in humans heads and turning them against god by falling into the lusts (lusts which either god created??? Or satan created and god couldn't destroy?) why would a merciful god give people the lust to have sex, and then tell us not to use it? Also why would he not destroy that lust if Satan created it? Seems awful Sadistic from a loving god.

(satan also thought deer, dogs and other animals should turn against god and made them homo as well, just because he could)

I know I couldn't choose to be gay? Not just because I don't like it but because physiologically I am not turned on by men. why would it be any different the other way around?

Edited to increase the readability which I will admit is often quite poor. tis my style.
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Postby JW on Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:14 pm

Wow, what great discussion, although the sarcasm is not appreciated from BB. I feel like you had a lot of well thought ideas. It is not men that change the hearts of men. I am not a salesman trying get you to buy into my God. I am a messenger, and it is God that changes the hearts of men when He decides to. I live by faith that Jesus Christ is who He says He is.

Also one question. Do you not know that for years History was passed down through story from generation to generation? Not just the Biblical histories, but that of the Middle East, East Asia, Africa, and Native America.

I fully admit that I do not have all the answers, and that my God is not fully revealed. I can't even understand some of the blessings that God provides for me, but blesses me He does.

Steno, I understand your thoughts completely. Typically and on the surface you are right, God appears to be a vengeful, wrathful God, but if you dig deeper into the text you may find it to be different.

Adam and Eve - God said that if they were to eat of the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would surely die(Gen 3:1-7).
After they ate God had every right to destro them, but His grace allowed them to live.

David - David commited adultery with Bathsheba, and although David was punished by that son dying, He was blessed with another son, Absalom.

Joseph - Taken by his brothers and sold into slavery, only to take advantage of the opportunities that God put in Joseph's path became the second most powerful man in Egypt. This led to Jacob (then known as Israel) to move his family to Egypt because there was a famine in the lands. God's grace provided this opportunity.

After 400 years in Egypt and when things began to get difficult for the nation of Israel there, God sent Moses and Aaron, the plagues, to make Pharaoh let Israel leave. After each plague you read that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, not because He wanted to make it difficult, but because He wanted the whole world to hear of the things that He was doing in Egypt.

The New Testament does not reveal that God is love, God reveals that through the Old Testament. Shows His love to Ruth, Esther, King Hezekiah,

David writes of God's love in Psalm 13:4 - But I have trusted in Your lovingkingness; my heart shall regoice in Your salvation. I will sing to the Lord, Because He has dealt with me bountifully."

God provided grace throughout the Old Testament. Did He punish His people, yes He did. But the text reveals Grace. God constantly is rescuing His people from themselves. When God sent Christ, it was not because He could not take away sin like He wanted to, but it was because, as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), Christ, the son of God came to the world to conquer sin.

BB, let me impart one thing on you that I have learned in the past couple of years. God is infallible, but He also wants us to trust that. Until we are able to fully submit to His will and not our own then it is going to sound like a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

There are not Billions of Hypocracies. God is not hypcratic, Man is though. I am not perfect, if you read one of my earlier posts i admitted that much. I defied God and had premarital sex. I knew it was wrong, but gave into the desires of my flesh. But also realize that what God truly desires for us to have when we engage in sexual relations is not the good feeling (does it feel good, yes it does), but it is the intimacy that God wants for us. That is why He desires to keep sex inside of marriage, because only in a true commitement can we have intimacy.

If you ever want to see the greatest example of Grace next to that of Jesus Christ on the cross, it is God only casting down Satan as opposed to destroying Him.

Has Christianity commited sins against Humanity, absolutely, but hasn't every other culture and religion in the world? I believe that answer to be yes.

Don't just focus on the negative things though. Christians have started orphanages in African countries to provide for those children whose parents have been wiped away by disease, famine, or war. Christians have helped to support countless people who have felt the effect of natural disasters. It is not because the people who are helping others are just good people, it is because they are inspired by God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. They are inspired by how they have been provided for.

This summer I left a comfortable place in Fort Worth, Texas and a job that I was making good money at, to move to Oklahoma City and work among the poor. Why? By my american standards that would be stupid, foolish, But God has different ideals that we do. God does not require me to make money to have a place in His kingdom. God does not require me to have chiseled good looks to have a place in His Kingdom. God does not require me to live in a 4/3 house to enter His Kingdom. God asks me to believe and to act according to His will, and He will be blessed.

John 5:24 Tuly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." - Jesus Christ

My final question - If a man wanted to sleep with an animal and marry it, should he be permitted to do so?

My prayer for everyone on this board is that God provide you with a safe summer whether you are traveling or playing Lacrosse. I pray that God opens your hearts to His nature and His providence. I pray that great discussion like this continues. It has been a blessing to me.
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Postby OAKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:17 pm

Beta wrote:Verse in question:

Corinthians 6:9

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


That's from the New International Version.


Here's the same verse from the older King James Version:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind


I don't see anything in there about men laying with men. I'm guessing effeminate got translated into homosexual? Who decided to do that and at what point did effeminate mean gay? Also, does this passage, and indeed the Leviticus passage as well, totally ignore lesbians? Or rather does the Corinthians passage condemn all women who are effeminate?
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Postby cecilc on Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:52 pm

BB wrote:I don't believe any of this mumbo jumbo. ... but there are just billions of hypocracies in the bible, and christianity.


Ahhhh, yes .... where have I heard all of those comments before .... ? ? Let's see .....

Oh, yea .... it was ME ! ! ! ..... A long time ago .... :)

Man, I know exactly where you're coming from .... I've been there and felt that ! All of it .....

Look, no one here on this board is going to try to "convert" you - it would be patently absurd to try it. Also, no one here is trying to piss you off, either. So I agree with JW about the sarcasm ... you'll be taken much more seriously without it .... We get it, though - you don't believe ....

And that's fine ....

It's been my experience that belief is in itself an "experience" ....

But I will tell you quite honestly that I have my own "problems" with Biblical interpretation and understanding and how "man" has behaved in the name of Christ and in the name of God ... but I've also come to realize that the problems that I have in regard to Biblical incidents and stories and timing is NOT because of how the Bible is written or what the Bible says .... the problems that I have are in the way(s) that "man" has interpreted how the Bible is written and interpreted what the Bible says (which, in some ways, goes right back to how "man" has behaved in the name of Christ and in the name of God!).

My spirituality (or faith, if you prefer) is not "blind" .... it's actually opened my eyes to how we, as a species, have screwed up ....
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Postby JW on Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:38 pm

cecilc wrote:
BB wrote:I don't believe any of this mumbo jumbo. ... but there are just billions of hypocracies in the bible, and christianity.


Ahhhh, yes .... where have I heard all of those comments before .... ? ? Let's see .....

Oh, yea .... it was ME ! ! ! ..... A long time ago .... :)

Man, I know exactly where you're coming from .... I've been there and felt that ! All of it .....

Look, no one here on this board is going to try to "convert" you - it would be patently absurd to try it. Also, no one here is trying to piss you off, either. So I agree with JW about the sarcasm ... you'll be taken much more seriously without it .... We get it, though - you don't believe ....

And that's fine ....

It's been my experience that belief is in itself an "experience" ....

But I will tell you quite honestly that I have my own "problems" with Biblical interpretation and understanding and how "man" has behaved in the name of Christ and in the name of God ... but I've also come to realize that the problems that I have in regard to Biblical incidents and stories and timing is NOT because of how the Bible is written or what the Bible says .... the problems that I have are in the way(s) that "man" has interpreted how the Bible is written and interpreted what the Bible says (which, in some ways, goes right back to how "man" has behaved in the name of Christ and in the name of God!).

My spirituality (or faith, if you prefer) is not "blind" .... it's actually opened my eyes to how we, as a species, have screwed up ....



Cecil,

thank you for your well thought out comments. I tried to figure out what to comment on from your post, but it was all just really awesome.

Here's the thing for anyone here who believes that I am trying to convert you. In my heart of hearts do I feel like I am speaking truth, absolutely, but not because of my own wisdom or thoughts, but because of the thoughts that the Holy Spirit has placed on me. That said, I don't believe that I have the magic words to create a "conversion" experience for anyone. God changes hearts, not men. Men have to put in the work, but it is God that ultimately moves in drawing people into His presence.

I love all you guys (obviously in the love that Christ has placed in my heart) and thank you so much for the discussion (whether or not you agree with me).
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Postby JW on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:59 pm

Just was reminded of this as I was listening to Air One. Thank you Luis Palaou.

Saul, a Jewish Scholar, was the greatest persecutor of the 1st Century Apostolic Christian Church. He was hunting down Christians from town to town and imprisoning them, killing some, and destroying churches. He is a man that most would figure to be outside the grace of God. Committed atrocious sins against mankind, but Christ new that he could use him. On the road to Damascus Christ appeared to Him (chapter 9 of Acts) and asked Saul "why are you persecuting me?" Because Saul had not believed Christ, he did not recognize Him and asked, "Who are you, Lord?" Jesus then told Saul who He was and what he was supposed to do. If any of you have read any portion of the new testament, odds are you have read his work. Saul later changes his name to Paul. Not out of shame, not out of fear, but because he knew that by receiving Christ, his sins were forgiven, and in order to leave his former identity behind him, he changed his name. Saul becomes Paul and goes on to right about half of the New Testament. He is considered to be the greatest missionary. The first to take the message of Christ to the gentiles (non-jewish people).

We all have faults, but Christ wants to be in a relationship with each and everyone of us. If you are a Christian and are thinking that you have messed up too much in the past for God to use you, you are wrong. God can use you to do marvelous things in this world for His glory. If you are not a Christian, think about this story and try to recognize the loving kindness that God offered Paul, and understand that same loving kindness is available for you also.
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