Isn't time to take down the Bird Feeder?

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Troll?

Postby Jester on Thu May 29, 2008 1:44 pm

Adam,

The thread starter is valid if you don't assume too much about why Sonny posted it. There are a huge number of people who think this way, and examining the origin of the belief can be illuminating. There is something to it, as well, if only the guy hadn't tried to equate people who make our lifestyles possible with plague bearing sky rats.

The blogger's main issue, the worker's comp claims, is a tough one. Eric Schlosser talks in Fast Food Nation about the undocumented worker who, by the age of 35, had destroyed his body in a meatpacking plant without ever filing for disability. This is akin to stepping on the wing of the bird that is installing your cable, getting pissed at it for being in your house, and then flinging the carcass into your neighbor's yard to show the other birds who is in charge.

If the lawsuits are truly frivolous, that is different. I can't imagine that there are a heck of a lot of illegals who want to draw attention to themselves by entering the court system. Sounds more like a states' attorney got wind of humna rights abuses and tried to find a balance.

And now, back to market analyses. Anyone want to hear about the likelihood of retaining bible study product lines for teenagers? Hint - not good.
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Postby Adam Gamradt on Thu May 29, 2008 2:12 pm

"The thread starter is valid if you don't assume too much about why Sonny posted it."

Indeed. Perhaps Sonny can join the discussion and provide further insight?
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Postby Timbalaned on Thu May 29, 2008 2:35 pm

Ok just forget the thread starter if that makes you mad. Watch the video and you get the same idea for what is being talked about. It is a good video and is scary that it is only about 20 years away. And people wonder why public schools suck when they are supposed to be building a new one EVERY DAY to compensate for the amount of kids.
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Postby Rob Graff on Thu May 29, 2008 3:19 pm

Brauck:

I presume you are not implying that "ALL" public schools suck? I'd have to hijack the thread if that's what you were saying.

:D

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Postby Sonny on Thu May 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Nothing more then a discussion starter Adam. You give me too much credit.
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Postby Timbalaned on Thu May 29, 2008 4:14 pm

Rob -

Not all, but if the trend continues then I would say that number gets closer to all. There is no way the government will be able to open enough schools and get enough quality teachers to handle that load of kids. So right now I will say it is many getting closer to all each day...
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Postby Chris Larson on Thu May 29, 2008 4:26 pm

The analogy might not be the best, but it does contain a kernel that is an issue. When things are too easy to get (illegal immigration, welfare, lawsuits) they can get abused.

As an enlightened society, we have to balance the good intended for the deserving with the bad of those who would abuse our societal generousity.

In immigration, there are a lot of factors - among them cheap labor vs tax revenue. You can bet that the hospitality and agricultural lobbies will fight any additional control while state governments and insurance companies will lobby for more.

In litigation it's the right to due process vs a legal system closed to all but a priviledged few. How do we reduce the demand for frivolous lawsuits when there are attorneys willing to take on the cases and courts willing to hear them? Where do you draw the line?

In welfare it's the relationship of the good of the individual vs the good of the whole and how they are intertwined. Do we eventually recover the cost of helping an individual through their contribution (combined with the loss of their cost) to society once they're on their feet again?

Let's not get caught up in the superficial and look into what the blogger is (poorly) trying to get to.

Discuss.
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Postby OAKS on Thu May 29, 2008 4:36 pm

I think the bird feeder is actually being taken down.

The Republicans & Democrats have certainly made the U.S. a less appealing place for immigrants (& anyone) to visit & live in over the past 7-8 years.
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Postby Rob Graff on Thu May 29, 2008 4:39 pm

I've lived in New York (LI), Mass, NH, Philly and Minnesota. And there have certainly been Public Schools in each of these areas that are outstanding and a few others that are known to be horrendous. I've never had the feeling in those states that a strong Public Schools were less demanding than the Private Schools. And I've seen in Minnesota a number of private schools who cater to the younger student that absolutely do not prepare their students for high achievement in HS. This hasn't changed over many years in my experience (which is, I concede, is limited in scope) So I'm not certain the downward spiral in the public schools is as rapid as you seem to suggest.

Isn't the point that, if your premise is correct - that we're going to see a population boom of a certain socio-econmic class - our education instituions are going to have to be funded to handle that boom?

Want more and professional teachers? Pay them as such. Conceptually easy to solve. Many have masters, and in any other profession people with Masters degrees/their equivalent are paid dramatically higher than other employees.

Want more schools? Again, one conceptually easy (politically difficult) solution - Have state student/teacher ratios standarized, and bus people to various schools to equalize the ratios where those ratios cannot be met givne the current physical schools existing in a community. And at least in Minnesota - in many of our 2nd ring suburbs, there are numerous school buildings that have been closed that could be reopoened. And if we do need more school construction projects, I'd have felt a HECK alot better if the Government had used the borrowing spree that yeilded the "Bush Bucks" checks for new construction of schools using American-based construction businesses, that check the citizenship status of their workers.

Pandora's not going back into the box, willingly. We're not going to pull up the immagrant bridge, metaphorically. And if our public school system is what socializes all our children while also (hopefully) giving them the tools to proceed toward the career they choose (thus "pushing them" toward buying into becoming a productive, law abiding citizen), why does re-allocating our budget resources towards this goal not make sense?
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Postby TheBearcatHimself on Thu May 29, 2008 4:43 pm

Well, I won't get too caught up in it, but the analogy has deep racial overtones. Human is to Americans as Animals are to Immigrants. Clean Yard is to America as Poop and Bird Nests are to Immigrant byproducts. Those are the analogies. A little sensational if you ask me.

Providing health care plans and education to immigrants in order to keep them alive and functional members of our society is hardly equatable to a free lunch.

There are two types of immigration change: Reform and prevention. If you are in agreement with this analogy you are promoting immigration prevention, which is very different from immigration reform. Immigration reform allows immigrants to enter the country and receive the benefits that a flourishing society should be providing, most of which we currently don't.

There's a reason people are not "providing a refutation" to this analogy, because it is founded in hatred and emotion. In order to understand the problem you have to stop being lazy and equate the situation within rational bounds. Immigrants are humans too, and they don't poop on porches or build "nests". Get real.
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Postby OAKS on Thu May 29, 2008 4:53 pm

Rob Graff wrote:Want more and professional teachers? Pay them as such. Conceptually easy to solve.

Want more schools? Again, one conceptually easy (politically difficult) solution -


Without getting too off topic, aren't we paying the most per-student of any country in terms of education funding? I definitely think you're right on with the Teacher salary thing - if we can reward teachers with high salaries, teaching will become much more competitive, and ideally the students will actually be engaged in and enjoy learning, rather than "no child left behind standardized testing". If teaching somehow had the pay of a baseball player, or being a doctor, I think you'd see amazing things happening. Get rid of the fancy laptops in the classroom, magnet schools or whatever (I'm sure they help in a small number of instances though). Bring in good, passionate teachers, solid, unbiased text books, and the classes that are getting cut - Music, P.E., art, home economics, personal finance, etc.

I forget who wrote it, but there's a great short story about a man moving up the ranks in the school system. First he starts off as a secretary, then gets promoted to a school district administrator, then gets promoted to a school principal, then finally when he has proven himself, he is promoted to teacher, where he gets his name in the paper, recognition around his community, and pay increases along the way.
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Postby Timbalaned on Thu May 29, 2008 9:52 pm

TheBearcatHimself wrote:There are two types of immigration change: Reform and prevention. If you are in agreement with this analogy you are promoting immigration prevention, which is very different from immigration reform. Immigration reform allows immigrants to enter the country and receive the benefits that a flourishing society should be providing, most of which we currently don't.



Not sure I would refer to the US as a flourishing society right now...
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Postby Gvlax on Thu May 29, 2008 10:16 pm

Timbalaned wrote:
TheBearcatHimself wrote:There are two types of immigration change: Reform and prevention. If you are in agreement with this analogy you are promoting immigration prevention, which is very different from immigration reform. Immigration reform allows immigrants to enter the country and receive the benefits that a flourishing society should be providing, most of which we currently don't.



Not sure I would refer to the US as a flourishing society right now...


Compared to Mexico it looks great. Also, anyone else notice that immigration talks become more popular once the job market starts to diminish? But once the economy turns around and qualified people get jobs, no one will complain that immigrants are doing the dirty work. I for one think illegal immigrants are bad in the sense that they should go by the book to enter the country. But the problem is that our system of doing so is extremely slow and tough. Lets make the immigration system more efficient and then work on getting the illegals out now. Plus who can put on a roof in one day or drywall my fathers house in one day better than the immigrants? no one thats who.
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Postby TheBearcatHimself on Fri May 30, 2008 2:29 am

Timbalaned wrote:Not sure I would refer to the US as a flourishing society right now...


I understand your sentiments, I was simply taking a meta-historical view on current US society. There is no society in history comparable to contemporary American society. No society in history has offered the benefits as our own...thus the natural attraction from other societies.

The only society that comes close to comparison is Ancient Rome, and even then new citizens were more subjugated than assimilated.

I'm also shocked no one has used the analogy of building a wall around our bird feeder. Because building walls will keep the birds from getting over....oh wait, birds aren't stupid, they can just fly over walls, or peck through them...dang, better build a $700 million wall to fix that problem.
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Postby Timbalaned on Fri May 30, 2008 2:41 am

Gvlax wrote:Plus who can put on a roof in one day or drywall my fathers house in one day better than the immigrants? no one thats who.


Plenty of people can, hell I have done work like that. But the reality is since there are immigrants, some who will work at less that legal min wage, there is no need for "the mighty American" to stoop to that level. If there were more regulations, everyone was paid the same, benefits were given, then I think it wouldn't be just an "immigrant" job
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