Working out at Harvard

by **UkraineNotWeak** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:31 pm

http://media.www.dailyfreepress.com/med ... 2133.shtml

Great. Muslims win again.

**Sponsor**

by **CharlotteLAX16** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:38 pm

How is that bad in anyway? I think its great. If Muslim women want to work out for free, they should be able to without infringing upon their religion.

by **UkraineNotWeak** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:46 pm

Um, what's next? How about only white people can work out at certain hours? Would you be ok with that?

by **CharlotteLAX16** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:57 pm

UkraineNotWeak wrote:Um, what's next? How about only white people can work out at certain hours? Would you be ok with that?

So you jump from religion to racism? What do either of these two situation have at all in common with each other?

I personally applaud Harvard for what they are doing.

by **Sonny** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:58 pm

UkraineNotWeak wrote:Um, what's next? How about only white people can work out at certain hours? Would you be ok with that?

Even better.

Berkely negotiating with the Saudis:
http://chronicle.com/news/article/4069/uc-berkeley-negotiating-deal-with-saudi-university

Just don't let the women take engineering classes!

by **Beta** on Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:07 pm

Ok, so when are "men-only" hours? If they have hours that discriminate against men, they need to have hours that discriminate against women too.

discriminate
to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit;

Boston University Islamic Society President Mohamed Serageldin said he thinks women-only gym hours would benefit Muslim women at BU.

"Because the FitRec is co-ed, [a Muslim woman] would most likely be compromising her modesty. He said modesty can be compromised on both the part of the man and the woman when physical action is involved."

It's a good thing that he is looking out for the modesty of muslim women [/sarcasm]. I am pretty sure women can make their own choices for themselves[/truth]. If they are so fearing of their OWN modesty...THEY have the choice to wear clothing to the gym[/common freaking sense].

by **BucLax13** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:06 am

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-relig-orthodox-gym-29feb29,1,5718055.story?track=rss

I don't see the big deal here... except for the fact some people want to bash muslim culture... numerous globo gyms offer separate workout facilities for women...

besides this article I found it is not uncommon to see women only workout facilities at YMCA/YWCA (christian org)...

hey some people asked for an accommodation for their religion, and the school is going to try a program to see if it works... remeber it is not only muslim women working out -> it is hours for all women to workout and I know for a fact many women don't appreciate being oogled by men at the gym... what is problem here?

we have a school sponsored athlete time only...are we non-athletes getting discriminated against?

women are asking for this accommodation... if they want to keep their fundamentalist religious beliefs... who cares... they are wanting to wear the burqa... So?

What are we going to complain about next... separate sex dressing rooms... how discriminating!!!

...unisex bathrooms brought to you by the conservative right

by **Timbalaned** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:16 am

The only problem I have is that I feel like it would be a huge double standard and if for some reason they wanted to have "men only hours" there would be a huge outcry against it, but I could be wrong.

by **Beta** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:32 am

BucLax13 wrote:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-relig-orthodox-gym-29feb29,1,5718055.story?track=rss

This is at a Jewish Community Center, and regardless...it lists SEPARATE facilities for women to use. Not kicking out men. And this is a religious building...not a public place that all student pay money to use for public hours.

I don't see the big deal here... except for the fact some people want to bash muslim culture... numerous globo gyms offer separate workout facilities for women...

It's bashing muslim culture to say that discrimination against men is wrong? No, Islam may be getting "bashed" simply because they are the ones pushing the button on the "stupid-launcher"..and therefore are at fault.

besides this article I found it is not uncommon to see women only workout facilities at YMCA/YWCA (christian org)...

Separate facilities isn't the problem. It is closing off all of the facilities for just women to use. Why can't they close off all of the facilities for just men to use? Not all men like to be oogled at the gym either. Regardless, this is on a religious private property and not at a public place that is funded by students and is for, students.

hey some people asked for an accommodation for their religion, and the school is going to try a program to see if it works... remeber it is not only muslim women working out -> it is hours for all women to workout and I know for a fact many women don't appreciate being oogled by men at the gym... what is problem here?

The problem is that male students are not allowed to use the student gym during specified normal hours. They are claiming it is for "all" women when it is clearly for muslim women...like you just claimed. Muslims make up what, .5% of the US Population? What about the flying spaghetti monster? Do fellow FSM followers get special privileges too against the big bad Christians?

we have a school sponsored athlete time only...are we non-athletes getting discriminated against?

No, the private facilities for athletes are for the NCAA athletes for their specialized training (see: merit)...and the students are allowed to use the student athletic facilities...except for men...between certain hours.

women are asking for this accommodation... if they want to keep their fundamentalist religious beliefs... who cares... they are wanting to wear the burqa... So?

It's not about religious beliefs, or the oppressing thereof. It's about "modesty". If they wish to work out and not be "oogled" by males...they could...I dunno...wear clothing? Not every girl is oogled at the gym. And I am pretty sure one that is covered head to toe in a black garb has absolutely nothing to worry about.

What are we going to complain about next... separate sex dressing rooms... how discriminating!!!

...unisex bathrooms brought to you by the conservative right

Women shouldn't have to undress in front of men in a locker room. However, in public facilities like a gym, or a library, or a lab...they have the option (at least in non-dominant Islamic countries) to wear whichever clothing they wish to, whether it be slutty, modest, etc etc. Having men and women undress in front of each other in a unisex bathroom is a direct infringement upon someone's privacy since that would be the only place for women to change. I guess this is only a problem in non-Islamic countries since women here, are actually allowed to leave their houses without fear of beating, burning, getting arrested by being around men not in her family, etc etc etc. Changing into and out of your clothing while naked is nothing like using the elliptical machine while wearing a hoodie and track pants.

I dunno, I was always under the impression that non-conservatives or moderates that are "liberal" were all about human rights and equality. But when it comes to situations like this where blatant sexism is used against men...it is somehow different than if the gym turned into the He-Man Woman Haters Club for 6 hours on Thursdays. And I thought conservatives were stereotyped for wanting to have religion all over the place...but in this case...it's the conservatives wanting to keep religion out of it. Myyy how the tables have turned.

I guess other GT-alums are the only people here that have had their gym completely taken away to give to women (Barbell).

http://dev.nique.gatech.edu/issues/2004-10-01/news/1

by **BucLax13** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:51 am

It's bashing muslim culture to say that discrimination against men is wrong? No, Islam may be getting "bashed" simply because they are the ones pushing the button on the "stupid-launcher"..and therefore are at fault.

muslims win again... doesn't sound like a real argument against male discrimination

Separate facilities isn't the problem. It is closing off all of the facilities for just women to use. Why can't they close off all of the facilities for just men to use? Not all men like to be oogled at the gym either. Regardless, this is on a religious private property and not at a public place that is funded by students and is for, students.

they are closing off one of three gyms for 6 hours so some individuals can work out with out having their whatever it is their wearing on... WHAT OPPRESSION!... remember that this is just a trial to see how it works...

The problem is that male students are not allowed to use the student gym during specified normal hours. They are claiming it is for "all" women when it is clearly for muslim women...like you just claimed. Muslims make up what, .5% of the US Population? What about the flying spaghetti monster? Do fellow FSM followers get special privileges too against the big bad Christians?

uh... no... it is time that women can work out with out men there... all women... you are projecting to make you argument seem more palatable beta...

No, the private facilities for athletes are for the NCAA athletes for their specialized training (see: merit)...and the students are allowed to use the student athletic facilities...except for men...between certain hours.

merit? I payed the same as them?

It's not about religious beliefs, or the oppressing thereof. It's about "modesty". If they wish to work out and not be "oogled" by males...they could...I dunno...wear clothing? Not every girl is oogled at the gym. And I am pretty sure one that is covered head to toe in a black garb has absolutely nothing to worry about.

just because you are not the foremost expert on muslim modesty does not mean that many of these women enjoy their own religion... I know it might be hard to understand (i am even perplexed at it) but it is what some of them would like so they can practice their religion...

Beta maybe you could ask for a guys only workout time :shock:

Remember this is a private university... they can do what they want... they will live with the consequences... they probably still won't be hurting for applicants... but dude it is a small accommodation?

by **BucLax13** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:00 pm

name one dominant world religion that might need the consideration of private workout time for men and I will be happy to sign your petition...

by the way NO MA'AM doesn't count
http://www.bundyology.com/nomaam.html
lol

This is not a foot bath with tax payers dollars argument... it is an religious accommodation at a private university

by **Beta** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:36 pm

BucLax13 wrote:muslims win again... doesn't sound like a real argument against male discrimination

It is male discrimination. Religion directly influences culture. Any form of discrimination is wrong, regardless of if it's against males, females, blacks, whites.

they are closing off one of three gyms for 6 hours so some individuals can work out with out having their whatever it is their wearing on... WHAT OPPRESSION!... remember that this is just a trial to see how it works...

Some of us work out at specific times and formulate our schedules around that. Why should all of the other people be inconvenienced because of 6 people that felt they wanted the gym to themselves? And it's not a huge deal in a sense that extreme human rights are being violated...but it's a direct step backwards in the direction from where we've been going since the 1960's, and back towards "separate but equal". Separate is NOT equal.

uh... no... it is time that women can work out with out men there... all women... you are projecting to make you argument seem more palatable beta...

No, 6 islamic women went to the school and asked for this. If 6 Christian women did this...do you think they'd accommodate it? You are absolutely kidding yourself or just lying if you say that they no. What if 6 black guys went up and asked to be able to workout without women around? Do you think the university would be so accommodating?

merit? I payed the same as them?

But you are not playing the varsity sports (most likely football) that paid for the facilities. You pay extra in your student activities fund that goes for the gym membership (most schools do) and if you don't want to work out there...that money (not much) can be deducted from your tuition. The varsity athletes at school deserve to have their own gym because they have serious, specialized workouts without having to wait to get a squat rack because some dumbass is doing curls on it.

just because you are not the foremost expert on muslim modesty does not mean that many of these women enjoy their own religion... I know it might be hard to understand (i am even perplexed at it) but it is what some of them would like so they can practice their religion...

They can enjoy whatever they want to. But a few people's INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS (which is what modesty is), should not inconvenience the vast majority that go to the gym and actually work out. Practicing their religion has nothing the hell to do with working out...it's 100% based around a person or culture's individual opinion on what modesty is. Modesty for one person is not always the same as another's. A tshirt and gym shorts for you, might offend someone who is wearing sweat pants and a t-shirt.

Beta maybe you could ask for a guys only workout time

I did, so did another 1000 people back in college, by going to a guy's only gym on campus...and the school (Georgia Tech) took it away to appease Title IX requirements and give the girl's volleyball team a basement because the ladies didn't want to play in the basketball coliseum, and the school refused to meet with the gym's officers to even discuss it. I've been down this road before. It was our choice/feelings that made us not want to work out in the student gym (just like modesty is a personal choice that is not universal)...and we paid the money/did what it took to compensate and fix the problem. If we can do it, they can do it (equal).

Remember this is a private university... they can do what they want... they will live with the consequences... they probably still won't be hurting for applicants... but dude it is a small accommodation?

Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of size the magnitude of the outcome. Whether it's gym times...or different water fountains. Why don't they just make a whole new schedule to appease everyone on campus?

7-8: Females
9-10: Left-handed Male Computer Geeks who feel that working out around women is embarrassing and they lose a sense of "modesty".
11am-9pm: Everyone else
9-11pm: Female Duck-Billed Platypii...they're VERY territorial and don't feel that working out around other male Platypode makes them very uncomfortable and who are we to question nature?

So wait...since being in workout clothes immediately loses a sense of modesty when males are around...does that mean that all males that work in the gym are required to leave the facility so nobody sees the women? I mean, we have to be 100% sure no one so much as sees the women. Let's just isolate all women from men, give them a whole new set of oppressive laws and make them eat at other tables while we're at it. Oh wait...sounds like the Middle East.

I have an idea...if someone doesn't like something that's equal...they can pay money for something that isn't equal like the rest of the free world.

www.curves.com

Here is what is being said "This group's birth (criteria) means they cannot workout during these time frame". Replace it with the following and how is that fair?

A) Gender
B) Race
C) Sexuality
D) All of the above

Those are not completely different from the Harvard situation either. We don't control our birth (criteria)...so we shouldn't have to be inconvenienced because of it.

Modesty is a personal opinion that is different for every individual...just like racism was/is. So if the sign below said "Women" instead of "Colored", that would be OK?

by **BucLax13** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:23 pm

I am sorry they took away your barbell club beta... that sucks and I mean that... BUT don't think this is the same thing

it really is about religion... we are not talking about separate water fountains... we are talking about accommodating one religious belief to allow some muslim women to workout and all women can have private gym time (a common practice)... one gym of THREE(<--- please reread that) so women can practice their religion (not wear the hijab) and workout... it is hardly a waiting area...

Yes men are inconvenienced & I am not arguing against that they are not... but I am still waiting on the one applicable instance in religion that could need a private workout time for men? NAME ONE SCENARIO!

If you can name it... I will give up beta...
They should step forward and ask for it... if the school is going to make religious accommodations on a trial basis they should do it for everyone... now name one religious instance for the private workout time for men!

by **BucLax13** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:41 pm

Beta wrote:
BucLax13 wrote:muslims win again... doesn't sound like a real argument against male discrimination

It is male discrimination.

yah... that is what ukrane was worried about

but it's a direct step backwards in the direction from where we've been going since the 1960's, and back towards "separate but equal". Separate is NOT equal.

the minority is asking to be separate so they can participate in the activity... it is a particular scenario for religious accommodation...

If 6 Christian women did this...do you think they'd accommodate it?

I don't know because they haven't asked... probably because it doesn't affect them.. and there is no plausible religious scenario needing to be accommodated or if there is...?

The varsity athletes at school deserve to have their own gym because they have serious, specialized workouts without having to wait to get a squat rack because some dumbass is doing curls on it.
most of them have it already... doesn't mean they deserve it though... and yes I hate the dumbass doing curls in he squat rack

I mean, we have to be 100% sure no one so much as sees the women. Let's just isolate all women from men, give them a whole new set of oppressive laws and make them eat at other tables while we're at it. Oh wait...sounds like the Middle East.

or like some christians I know that think their wife has a subservient role in their household... your argument doesn't work though... even though you consider that hijab thing oppressive there are many individuals that are very proud of it... they(the women) are the ones asking for the accommodation, i know this sounds weird to you but they are asking to be separate <--- to practice their religion in one instance you won't even give credence to the scenario because .05% of the 128 hour gym time of one of three gyms has come under fire against the oppressed harvard male.. uwhahahahaha

by **Beta** on Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:02 pm

but I am still waiting on the one applicable instance in religion that could need a private workout time for men? NAME ONE SCENARIO!

There isn't, just like there isn't for women either...which is my point. This is bogus. Modesty is someone's own opinion. It doesn't say in the Quran that women and men cannot workout together. It says "modesty" like most other religions do. What is modest for one person isn't modest for another.

The barbell club example is an instance of appeasing a small minority while affecting many more others...just like this.

Yes 3 gyms, I read it...that still doesn't mean discrimination is ok. I lived in the dorm closest to the gym in college so I could workout more easily...just like a lot of people do.

Why can't there be whites-only gym hours? Or gays-only gym hours? There are now female-only gym hours.

I dunno what Ukraine thinks.

And yes, a minority asked to be separate...at the inconvenience of others.

My argument does work because discrimination is not ok, and will never be ok. Whether it is about gym-times, water fountains, or whatnot. You can argue that discriminating against someone because of their sex is alright all day long...you can have that side of that argument to yourself.

I don't consider the hijab to be oppressive...I consider the culture/laws established in middle eastern countries to be oppressive. People can wear/not-wear what they want to..it's their choice to do so. It's their own personal opinion on how they feel about their bodies and what they think when someone looks at them.

Leaving religion out of it...it is not ok to say that men cannot use a gym during the normal public hours but females can. Just like it is not ok to make black people in the 1960's drink from different fountains. Just like it is not ok to not hire someone at a job based on their race/sex/religion. Magnitude of the situation doesn't change the fact that discrimination is not ok. I dunno how many times I can say that on here.