Obama Clinches Nomination

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Postby jayjaciv on Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:43 pm

You seem to be using the phrase "history" loosely.
From over a year ago: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
Since we apparently just like to read headlines from Michelle Malkin's blog and not whole articles (jokes!), here are the important parts:
Allegations that Sen. Barack Obama was educated in a radical Muslim school known as a "madrassa" are not accurate, according to CNN reporting.

[A Clinton aide] called the story "an obvious right-wing hit job."

The Insight article was cited several times Friday on Fox News and was also referenced by the New York Post, The Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and a number of political blogs.

"It's not (an) Islamic school. It's general," Winadijanto said. "There is a lot of Christians, Buddhists, also Confucian. ... So that's a mixed school."

The Obama aide described Fox News' broadcasting of the Insight story "appallingly irresponsible."


So no, saying Obama went to a radical Islamic school as these "news" organizations did is not a discussion of history and religion. It is an attempt to perpetuate falsities in order to achieve a political goal.
I consider this unethical. If you do not, I ask that you allow my mother to come hit you with a wooden spoon until you learn the difference between right and wrong.
If, however, you think that Obama attending a Muslim-run school while he lived in a country that is populated almost entirely by Muslims to be an issue, so be it. It's a free country and you're allowed to be ethnocentric if you want to be. Personally I'm a little bit worried about his Catholic school background.
Last edited by jayjaciv on Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Adam Gamradt on Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:43 pm

Wow.

Trust me, I'm not supporting Obama blindly.

Well ok, don't trust me, since it's clear you already have formed an opinion.

Do not mistake my passion for zealotry. I have read his books, and find him to be a man who can express his ideas eloquently. He has wonderful leadership qualities, he makes attempts to answer questions openly and honestly, values and understands technology and it's ability to make a positive impact on the world. He believes in transparency above secrecy, and I trust he'll mold his government around such principles. That's a start, I can certainly engage in further reasoned debate if you are interested.

I'm not talking about a discussion of people's past. Discussion and analysis? The root cause of the staffers mistake is hardly a result of discussion and analysis. I'm talking about plain old Republican smear tactics.

The second most popular urban legend or rumor on Snopes is Senator Obama. Granted this isn't scientific by any means, so take it for what it's worth. I challenge you to find a similar volume of smear tactics from the Democrats. Don't get me wrong, it's not because we're good people, it's just a lack of organization!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp

Senator McCain's list is a bit smaller. Care to wager a guess as to why?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/m ... mccainsons

As far as Obama attending a Muslim school, it's cool with me if you really think that matters. I think it's just another Rovian scare tactic.

But you don't have to trust me. Let's see what Senator Obama has to say about this.

"For my mother, organized religion too often dressed up closed-mindedness in the garb of piety, cruelty and oppression in the cloak of righteousness.

This isn't to say that she provided me with no religious instruction. In her mind, a working knowledge of the world's great religions was a necessary part of any well-rounded education. In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology. On Easter or Christmas Day my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites. But I was made to understand that such religious samplings required no sustained commitment on my part. Religion was an expression of human culture, she would explain, not its wellspring, just one of the many ways — and not necessarily the best way — that man attempted to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives.

In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. "

The fact that you quote Islamic text without clearly expressing intent is even weirder than my cloudy judgement. If you would, please translate for the rest of us? As I am sure you are aware, that phrase has several translations, and I'm curious which one you intended to communicate here.

Obama is certainly not denouncing the fact that he went to a predominantly Muslim school! He is denouncing the strategy of the Republican party, which include tactics such as Whisper Campaigns (John McCain 2000), ad hominem attacks (Barack Hussein Obama), and questioning people's patriotism (John Murtha and about half of all Americans) for simply disagreeing with their position.

You said: "Young voters look at McCain as old and out of touch; white and Hispanic working class voters see Obama as an elitist, intellectual do nothing."

I believe we can do better than simple stereotypes.
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Postby Jac Coyne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:45 pm

Adam, please. Save the condescension for your political missionary work in the Upper Midwest. It doesn't play here.

Adam Gamradt wrote:I mean Jac, you can't honestly believe campaigns picking out which people should be included in the background is unethical?


This isn't about inclusion, it's about exclusion. It makes sense to stand in front of a bunch of white women if you are going to talk to that consituency. But why include Muslim men in Western clothing but purposely exlude women with head scarfs on your podium? Especially in Detroit, which has a very high Muslim population in its suburbs? It flies in the face of the examples cited in the article and seemingly goes against every piece of Obama rhetoric we've heard for the past four months.

A mistake by a campaign staffer is a non issue. Given the sad state of political discourse, is it really surprising that people overreact and make stupid decisions from time to time?


We're not dealing with Mark Penn or some other advisor who has the candidate's ear here. These are foot soldiers who don't go to the bathroom without the explicit permission of the campaign manager, who takes his/her cue from the candidate. These events are scripted down to the second, word and camera angle -- which they should be considering what is at stake -- so to believe that somehow a pimple-faced volunteer was able to make a unilateral decision about the racial make-up of the main podium is naive, to be kind.

This was a calculated decision by Obama to distance himself from anything relating to Muslims. He got caught, and had to apologize. Just because he did doesn't make the issue go away. Adam, you can continue to attempt to muddy the discourse by constantly bringing up the supposed Republican smear machine, etc., but that fact is Obama is on the defensive with this issue and he is not handling it well. You want to debate why he has to; I want to know how he is going to solve it.

Oh, and I noticed in your laundry list of supposed political dirty tricks that you didn't mention Dan Rather's manufacturing of W's national guard record in an attempt to sabatoge his reelection. An oversight, I'm sure.
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Postby jayjaciv on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:13 pm

But why include Muslim men in Western clothing but purposely exlude women with head scarfs on your podium?
Well that's a dumb question (more jokes!).

This is definitely a screw-up by the Obama camp, but I also don't think it is huge.

I would argue that his campaign managers were placed in a difficult position BY the various hit-jobs attempting to associate Obama with radical Islam. The man simply cannot afford to be visually associated even with traditional Islam. Sean Hannity would have a field day. This is an added bonus for those who started those rumors.

He is sticking to his rhetoric, but he is also a politician and those rumors continue to circulate and haunt him. I can certainly understand the reason behind not letting women in traditional Muslim garb sit behind Obama. I don't think it is right, and it definitely counts against Obama, but I feel his campaign manager's pain (this, of course, does not excuse whoever is responsible).
The attempted associations of Obama with radical Islam were perhaps inevitable, but I still feel they are responsible for creating an environment of some hostility between Obama and Muslim Americans.

This incident is perhaps an indicator that American politics as an institution will not allow Obama to be able to institute the change he so often talks about...I personally think all this "change" talk is garbage, because either candidate is going to change tack from George Bush. The question, however, is how much. Whoever is presenting the furthest departure from the last 8 years come November will get my vote, and despite this incident, that man still appears to be Obama.
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Postby Dan Wishengrad on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:36 pm

Jac Coyne wrote:Oh, and I noticed in your laundry list of supposed political dirty tricks that you didn't mention Dan Rather's manufacturing of W's national guard record in an attempt to sabatoge his reelection. An oversight, I'm sure.


Jac my friend, methinks you have your facts backward. Yes, CBS ran a story on Bush's National Guard service on 60 Minutes produced by Mary Mapes and reported by Dan Rather, which wound up costing both of them their jobs when the right-wing went nuts over one single piece of documentary evidence which could not be authenticated, and CBS/Viacom exuctives desperate to stay in good graces with the Administration caved and offered up two sacrificial lambs. Shoddy journalism? Maybe, and clearly that "Killian document" should not have been used if not authentic -- even though Killian's secretary said she didn't remember typing it but that the facts laid out in it were correct. But the underlying gist of the story has NEVER been disproved -- that connections were pulled and that Bush was slid into the "Champagne Unit" of the Texas Air National Guard ahead of more than 500 men who were on the wait list, specifically to avoid service in Viet Nam. Bush then failed to show up for a physical and finish his stint after requesting transfer to the Alabama National Guard. He somehow received an honorable discharge although this has never been explained. Please offer one piece of evidence that these basic facts are incorrect if you can.

"Attempt to sabotage his reelection"? This story came out at almost the exact time that Karl Rove's merry men were launching their "Swift Boat" crew to tarnish Sen. Kerry's resume with a bunch of absolute lies designed to sabotage HIS election. No wonder they attacked CBS and Rather so ferociously, otherwise people might start talking about the truth of Bush's own military service versus that of Kerry's, and the Bushies couldn't allow that. Just as they are doing now with Scott McClellan, the game plan is to attack the man but never even discuss the facts as were laid out. But hey, it worked last time and Bush was re-elected after all. The ends justify the means for some folks.

Good reading on this issue:

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200709250005

and:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal ... ther_suit/
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Postby FLALAX on Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:31 pm

Dan Wishengrad lets review:

Fabricating evidence to report a story is wrong and they lost their jobs because the ratings plummeted due to intelligent Americans on both sides of the political spectrum not wanting to hear lies anymore.

The press has a liberal edge and even they did not defend these fabricators.
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Postby Dan Wishengrad on Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:11 pm

FLALAX wrote:Dan Wishengrad lets review:

Fabricating evidence to report a story is wrong and they lost their jobs because the ratings plummeted due to intelligent Americans on both sides of the political spectrum not wanting to hear lies anymore.


They lost their jobs because the CBS executives and their corporate bosses at Viacom caved to enormous White House pressure. What were the lies, please? What part of the story about how Bush got into the Guard and how he failed to finish his service has ever been refuted? Doesn't the overwhelming evidence -- without any contrary proof from W.'s own Guard service records (which he has steadfastly refused to disclose) -- prove that CBS got the story right from the start?
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Postby Sonny on Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:30 pm

jayjaciv wrote: I personally think all this "change" talk is garbage, because either candidate is going to change tack from George Bush. The question, however, is how much. Whoever is presenting the furthest departure from the last 8 years come November will get my vote, and despite this incident, that man still appears to be Obama.


Make sure you get your Disneyworld Tickets now before the rush.... It appears that Obama will be conducing his foreign policy cabinet meetings there:
Paging Winnie the Pooh

Change we CAN believe in! LOL..... You can't make this stuff up.
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Postby OAKS on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:35 pm

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Postby jayjaciv on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:35 pm

I'm actually impressed. A man with a realistic outlook on foreign policy and a sense of humor to boot. That's pretty much the polar opposite of Rumsfeld and "Condi," which is a little bit o' change I could go for.
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Postby Dr. Jason Stockton on Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:16 am

Dan Wishengrad wrote:
FLALAX wrote:Dan Wishengrad lets review:

Fabricating evidence to report a story is wrong and they lost their jobs because the ratings plummeted due to intelligent Americans on both sides of the political spectrum not wanting to hear lies anymore.


They lost their jobs because the CBS executives and their corporate bosses at Viacom caved to enormous White House pressure. What were the lies, please? What part of the story about how Bush got into the Guard and how he failed to finish his service has ever been refuted? Doesn't the overwhelming evidence -- without any contrary proof from W.'s own Guard service records (which he has steadfastly refused to disclose) -- prove that CBS got the story right from the start?


Are we going to talk now about how Bush stole the election in Florida? Can't we let this stuff rest? Rather lost his job for shoddy, irresponsible reporting.
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Postby Sonny on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:29 am

OAKS wrote:Available at your local Texas Republican State Convention


Not anymore and the Texas GOP are donating all the proceeds from this vendor to the Midwest flood victims:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20080618/co_po/vendorsracistbuttonsembarrasstexasgop

State GOP spokesman Hans Klingler said the party does not vet the merchandise being sold, but officials plan to discuss doing so in the future. The button sales at the convention in Houston were first reported in the Dallas Morning News.

"This vendor need not apply to another Texas GOP state convention," Klingler said. "We will neither tolerate nor profit from bigotry."
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Postby Sonny on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:33 am

jayjaciv wrote:I'm actually impressed. A man with a realistic outlook on foreign policy and a sense of humor to boot. That's pretty much the polar opposite of Rumsfeld and "Condi," which is a little bit o' change I could go for.


Winnie the Pooh is realistic?

What's next Bert and Ernie for Department of Defense?
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Postby laxfan25 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:11 am

Sonny wrote: Winnie the Pooh is realistic?


If you actually read the point he is making, yes, it is very wise...
Richard Danzig, who served as Navy Secretary under President Clinton and is tipped to become National Security Adviser in an Obama White House, told a major foreign policy conference in Washington that the future of US strategy in the war on terrorism should follow a lesson from the pages of Winnie the Pooh, which can be shortened to: if it is causing you too much pain, try something else...

Mr Obama’s candidacy was given an early boost by his opposition to the Iraq war and he has repeatedly said the US needs to rethink its approach to the Middle East.

Mr Danzig spelt out the need to change by reading a paragraph from chapter one of the children’s classic, which says: “Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming down stairs. But sometimes he thinks there really is another way if only he could stop bumping a minute and think about it.”


When you read it in context it makes perfect sense, reflects a refreshing change from the mindless, off-the-cliff policies of the current administration and puts it in terms that the average American voter can understand.
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Postby KnoxVegas on Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:26 am

Sonny wrote:What's next Bert and Ernie for Department of Defense?


You have a whole generation that has been raised on Sesame Street, so I am sure that some of the lessons that Bert & Ernie and the other characters have taught children since the inception of Sesame Street have permeated the thought processes of millions in this country and around the world.

It is not the message but where the guy learned it that matters most? More fake outrage from the Right.

As for the racist button from the Texas State Republican Party, I guess donating money makes it all better now?
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