Hillary Weeps

[laxfan25]

Where does this stuff come from about the Clintons. They were drug dealers during the Iran Contra Affair too......didn't you guys hear.

I really need to figure out how to convey sarcasm on the interwebs. Because I actually really like Bill Clinton.

Simple, uset the wink emoticon! Or don't they teach that advanced stuff at Georgia Tech?

[Zeuslax]

“I’m going to be crying so much you’re going to think I’m Anderson Cooper,” she wept.

that's awesome....too funny.

I was talking to a few friends that are in NY trying the acting game. AKA waiters, Bush Gardens summer employees and blogers for money (I’m not talking about fresh out of college here either). I didn't say that though. They both said that there was no way that it was faked. I guess they had a big discussion about it in acting class as well. Quite simply there was too much blinking, with the cracking in the voice at the same time and the manner in which they coincided would have made it extremely tough to do. From what I understand it's exceptionally hard to achieve that level without some "gear-up" time. With the quick Q&A session she was under and the nuisances of her uncontrolled responses it didn't seem plausible to them. Food for thought.

[Zamboni_Driver]

Bhenazir Bhutto

And she was exiled and now killed. Alas, none of these nations are the US. It's different with us (us = America) since we have to police the world, and often times babysit.

Few open ended questions on these combined topics:

What was Bhenazir's background (political, social)? Did she come from a non-political family and work her way into politics or was she a decendent of a political line? If she came from a political line, did she have any brothers?

Second, Bhutto's political party said Washington had to take some blame for not providing her security. Seems like the opinion of whether the US should be patrolling the world is not a matter of is it right or wrong, but is a matter of they are on the receiving end of our attention.

[Zeuslax]

Her family was extremely weathly......outside of the Oil for Food scandels and laundering. She was considered a princess essentially. Very political family and the son is at Oxford right now. They put him on the ticket even though he was returning to England for school - he's 19 by the way.

I do blame her in many ways for the security. She consistently blasted those that said she couldn't walk the streets and be amongst the people. There's a moral high-ground there I agree, but there's some common sense too.

Not that it's hard to do, but she completely dupped Bush and the admin when they pushed to allow her to return. I'll let the others add their 2 cents......

[Sonny]

I was talking to a few friends that are in NY trying the acting game. AKA waiters, Bush Gardens summer employees and blogers for money (I’m not talking about fresh out of college here either). I didn't say that though. They both said that there was no way that it was faked. I guess they had a big discussion about it in acting class as well. Quite simply there was too much blinking, with the cracking in the voice at the same time and the manner in which they coincided would have made it extremely tough to do. From what I understand it's exceptionally hard to achieve that level without some "gear-up" time. With the quick Q&A session she was under and the nuisances of her uncontrolled responses it didn't seem plausible to them. Food for thought.

I keep going back and forth on the real vs. fake.

She didn't seem to miss a single beat after the tears with the cameras rolling - going right back into her speaking political points. If she was truly that emotional... she probably would have need more then a nano-second to start campaigning again.

Regardless it seem to work quite nicely in NH. I still say it was an amazing show of weakness. She's all about women's power and being treated equal to the males in the political arena - yet the campaign trail is "tough." News flash.... being the POTUS is tough.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Yes, she really is a "good person".

- Good people have violated the rules of professional conduct as a lawyer in Arkansas (Whitewater) or, in the same transaction, violated several SEC rules in fraudulent investments.

And the convictions for these actions? How much was spent on the Whitewater investigations, and what were the charges filed against B&H?

- Good people have had an extra-marital affair with someone and then use their power as first lady of the nation to blackmail that individual, promising to ruin him, resulting in him committing sucide (then she used her power to collect the suicide note from Washington D.C. police and had it destroyed).

Good rumor and innuendo. How about some proof of an affair, blackmailing, etc.?

- Good people have sold themselves as feminists and then help their spouses discredit and ruin the spouse's mistresses, personally and professionally.

A very embarassing chapter for bill. What exactly was Hilary's role beside standing by her man while gritting her teeth?

- Good people have blamed opposing political parties for their own spouses' felonies (obstruction of justice and perjury) -- "Vast right-wing conspiracy."

With a very strong element of truth behind the allegations. Just have to look at the venom spewed at Hilary to see that kernel of truth there.

- Good people have fired White House staff without cause or notice.

Travel staff, as opposed to firing 8 US Attorneys without cause or notice?

- Good people are claiming to have 35 years' experience but then refusing to turn over White House memos to prove such experience.

I agree, I'd like to see those records released, but I'll leave that to the ex-President.

She's a win-at-all-cost fraud whose level of deceit and manipulation is unmatched

Yes, she's a tough politician, but the level of deceit and manipulation has had the all-time records set with the outgoing administration.

I found this thought provoking and will go on the record as believing her emotional display was encouraged by her campaign to improve her abysmal likability numbers.

I guess she won't be counting on your vote. Lay off the kool-aid.

Excellent disscetion, LaxFan25, of the almost irrational and blind hatred towards a woman by many who claim to love America but clearly hate good Americans who they disagree with politically. I am not one of those people -- I sure don't hate Republicans, for instance -- even those whose policies I strongly disagree with. Even IF most of the rumors and innuendos you picked apart were true, together they would still not explain why many on the right (and even some on the left, I concede) truly hate this woman. Consider:

Reagan was loved by the "moral majority", despite having had an affair with a co-star while married to Jane Wyman, whom he divorced to marry Nancy Davis. Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, John McCain and countless other Republicans who are divorced and have gone on to marry younger women are beloved and apparently forgiven these "sins" by those who admire their politics. Hillary stays married to Bill and is ridiculed for it. Nice.

Reagan (and some others in the GOP) are beloved by the religious right despite an apparent ambivalence towards organized religion and a record of not attending church regularly, or even at all. Hillary has always been devout regarding her faith and a regular church-goer her entire life, but has never worn her religiosity on her sleeve for political gain. So why exactly do so many "Christians" hate her? Isn't love for one's fellow man (and woman) a Christian virtue?

Bush (and many others in the GOP) has made millions from some shady dealings, trading on his family name and from consistently failed business ventures, yet Hillary profits from some investments herself and should be examined under a microscope and condemned for being a "successful capitalist"? How exactly did W. become a millionaire himself, again? Why does he get a pass and Hillary gets demonized?

Me, I think we humans are all imperfect and that we are all sinners. Yes, I think Hillary is a good person, and yes I agree she is often cold, calculating, personally ambitious and politically motivated. I may not be supporting her with my Washington caucus vote, either, but that doesn't mean I don't have empathy for her. I do believe she would prove to be a far superior President and Commander in Chief than the current occupant of the White House. But then I believe that almost anyone would be. If she gets a little misty-eyed and her voice cracks once a decade I still prefer this to cocky bravado. Sure doesn't preclude her abilities to do the job she is running for, in my book anyway.

And I still can't fathom the depth of hatred so many otherwise decent people have for her. Maybe you have to be a hater yourself to understand this?

[Ben Clark]

Except for the part about showing signs of weakness, I agree with you Sonny. I am also going back and forth on whether or not it was faked. Here's what I think: She probably gets these "overwhelmed" feelings all the time (who doesn't?) but she never lets it show. At this particular time, she probably had a little voice in the back of her head telling her, "It could be a good thing to show a little emotion", so she let it show a little bit.

So to sum up - I don't think she faked it, but I think it's possible that she knew what she was doing. Which, IMHO, would make it a pretty smart move.

[Adam Gamradt]

I was convinced it was real when I read the person who asked her the question actually voted Obama.

That also indicates it was a real question, and not planted.

She didn't even cry. I curled up under my desk in the fetal position and cried way more than she did this very morning.

[Dan Wishengrad]

Ooops... my earliest post from the wee hours this morning -- before I was sufficiently caffeined-up -- had to be deleted by our fearless leader due to my infringement of copyright laws. Good catch, Sonny, and sorry for my sin. I should have known better, and copious amounts of coffee have made me somewhat clearer-headed. For those who are left wondering what Anthony is referring to above, please read today's humor column from Andy Borowitz, regarding Hillary's upcoming crying schedule:

http://www.borowitzreport.com/Default.asp

I also wish to state for those who don't read carefully that the quotes from our good friend Jolly Roger I ran again above were NOT his own words, but quotations from another person. I most certainly am not attacking JR, or even the original poster, but taking issue with the words themselves. Now please excuse me while I have a good, therapeutic sob session here myself...

[laxfan25]

What was Bhenazir's background (political, social)? Did she come from a non-political family and work her way into politics or was she a decendent of a political line? If she came from a political line, did she have any brothers?

I would have assumed you knew that Benazir's father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, was a former president of Pakistan in the 1970's, until he was overthtrown in a coup by General Zia, accused of rigging an election, tried by a court (allegedly rigged by General Zia) convicted and executed. Zulfiqar was actually the father of Pakistan's nuclear program way back then.


Adapted from Wikipedia:

He had four children, 2 boys and two girls, Benazir being the oldest. Only one of them is still alive - her sister. The youngest boy, Shahnawaz Bhutto, was found dead at 27 in his apartment in Nice, France in 1985 under suspicious circumstances - possible poisoning. Shahnawaz is believed to have helped organize a group dedicated to overthrowing the regime of President Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, through links to Al-Zulfiqar, increasingly active in Pakistan at that time.

Her other brother, Murtaza, also came to a violent end. Murtaza Bhutto, the elder of the two sons of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, was a left-wing revolutionary. He took to arms after his father was executed by the military dictator Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in dubious circumstances. He shifted his base to Afghanistan, where a post-Soviet invasion communist government provided him with sanctuary and training.

Soon after, Pakistani young men in groups started to cross over the hazardous mountains in packs to join his international organization "al-zulfiqar"-a militant wing of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), a left wing party. KHAD offered help, and Bhutto willingly accepted while exploring other options in Tripoli (Libya), Damascus (Syria) and Beirut (Lebanon).

Murtaza Bhutto's group made numerous attacks on military and state infrastructure. These included the hijacking of a PIA airline in March 1981, and the murder of a Pakistani diplomat on board the plane. Salamullah Tipu was his lieutenant, and was later put before a firing squad on what critics argue was Murtaza's behest.

Murtaza Bhutto campaigned as an independent in the 1993 elections, winning a seat in the assembly. In 1995 he led a schism of the ruling Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP). After returning to Pakistan from exile, Bhutto offered his sister Benazir Bhutto the chance to revive the manifesto of PPP which his father championed. However, he was not happy with the corrupt ways of Benazir's husband Asif Ali Zardari and wanted him removed from influence in the PPP. When his sister decided to side with her husband, Murtaza became a strong critic of PPP government and the ongoing corruption. Zardari, and his protege Abdullah Shah Lakiyari (then Chief Minister of Sind), obstructed Murtaza's political compaign. Murtaza invited Zardari to talk in private and settle the problems within the family. However, the meeting ended in confrontation and Murtaza shaved off half of Zardari’s moustache. This humiliated Zardari. It is widely believed in Pakistan that this incident drove Zardari to rage and he used help from Lakiyari's police machinery to assassinate Murtaza Bhutto. Benazir became highly unpopular after this incident and her limo was stoned by PPP workers when she tried to visit Murtaza's funeral ceremonies. After Benazir's government was dismissed in 1996, Zardari was detained for having a part in Murtaza's assassination. However, no charges were ever proven due to lack of evidence (the scene of Murtaza's assassination was wiped off before any Police investigators could arrive at the scene. )

On 20 September 1996, Murtaza Bhutto was shot and killed, along with six supporters, in what was later determined to be an ambush by police.

On the evening of his assassination there were 70 to 100 police officers placed yards away from his residence , including several high-level police officials. Some of the officers were in sniper positions in the nearby trees with the streetlights being shut. As the car carrying Bhutto approached the house, it was stopped by a police contingent. When Bhutto exited the car, the police opened fire. All of the six men accompanying him were fatally shot too. Bhutto was shot several times, but the shot that killed him was fired execution style on his neck. The victims were left to bleed without any medical attention for half-an-hour to 45 minutes. In the aftermath of this assassination, none of the police officers were arrested, and some were later promoted to higher positions. Benazir Bhutto's government arrested all the survivors and witnesses, two of whom died mysteriously in police custody.

A judicial tribunal concluded that the assassination could not have occurred 'without approval from the highest level of government', thereby implying the involvement of Benazir Bhutto (the prime minister at the time) or her husband Asif Ali Zardari(the minister of Industry).

Murtaza Bhutto's daughter Fatima Bhutto has criticized her aunt and her uncle for their role in connection with the death of her father.

So the cycle of political violence in Pakistan is not a new phenomenon. Benazir and her husband are accused of complicity in the killing her brother - because of a bad shave! Her husband is now trying to assume the mantle of the PPP and has added Bhutto to his son's name as he is put forth as the candidate to replace Benazir, even though this Bhutto name technically would only be passed down through the male side of the family. For obvious reasons, Zardari is not well loved in all areas of the country or the PPP party.

This whole story would make a great movie (with General Zia being touched on in "Charlie Wilson's War") or a Shakespearean play worthy of MacBeth!

[laxfan25]

Back on topic, there was a very nice interview with the woman that asked the question on NPR yesterday. She thought the reaction was quite sincere, and the question was obviously not planted. The capper was when she said that she voted for Obama, because he moves her to tears!

Give a listen - http://www.npr.org/templates/player/med ... m=17962268

[OAKS]

Jon Stewart's take on the whole situation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/0 ... 80749.html

I think it's good that we're focusing on this in the election, rather than the issues.

[GrayBear]

I think it's good that we're focusing on this in the election, rather than the issues.

Veracity, character, integrity and strength, among other attributes, are always legitimate issues in evaluating someone for a leadership role. Always.

These are conceptual absolutes though, basically, and as such I don't see how they can conclusively be identified in a person, with any degree of certainty, just by observation. The imperfect substitute necessarily seems to be a deductive conclusion--an educated guess--of what people really are underneath it all, based on what they project and how we subjectively perceive it. That's what this is about, whether directed to Sen. Clinton or anybody else.

It's a very fair pursuit, IMO.

[Jac Coyne]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02052008/ne ... 757905.htm

At least this time she didn't do it right before an important primary.

Oh, wait. What's today?

[Zeuslax]

Jac, I'm going to have to go with real tears again.