For The Bible Tells Me So

[TheBearcatHimself]

My final question - If a man wanted to sleep with an animal and marry it, should he be permitted to do so.

I believe this is permitted in some cultures, I didn't want to do the google search to find out though.

JW, good stuff, I still believe you are missing my point that the cultural and moral uniqueness of the separate time periods in which separate parts of the bible were written provide different understandings and beliefs about God. A bible written in modern American culture would certainly carry different attitudes toward God than the current bible.

And back to the original point of the movie: A moral stance on homosexuality from 4,000 years ago cannot be transposed onto modern society just as a moral stance on capital punishment from then also carries no ethical ground on modern culture either. The bible provides no clear stance on homosexuality outside of that one verse in Leviticus, as the other posters before me have so clearly illustrated my earlier point: mistranslations, either accidental or deliberate, have mangled the true meaning of the original bible.

[LaxRef]

My final question - If a man wanted to sleep with an animal and marry it, should he be permitted to do so.

That's a red herring argument if I ever heard one. The central question at hand is, "Should consenting adults be allowed to do what they want with each other?" I don't think a sheep has the requisite faculties to consent, no matter how hot someone thinks it is.

I don't think the fact that some people find what others do behind closed doors distasteful should be sufficient cause to bar them from doing it, nor to deprive them of rights afforded to others. After all, no matter what you do behind closed doors, I'm sure there are people somewhere who are offended by it.

[MBlax327]

The central question at hand is, "Should consenting adults be allowed to do what they want with each other?"

Good form, Ref. This is what I am really interested to hear the debate about. There are so many intelligent people who post on this forum, as we have seen in the debate regarding the religious aspect of the issue. I am truly intrigued to see the different sides of the legal debate, as that is truly what is in question here. What does the constitution say about the matter? I am well aware of the Christian view in Biblical terms (regardless of if it is mislead through linguistic misinterpretation or not, I don't even pretend to know enough about the Bible or Aramaic to tell, But I let it stand that they are entitled to their opinions).

Should an act "preserving the sanctity of marriage" be considered constitutional or not? Does banning homosexual marriage actually accomplish this?

Post Script: Edited for stylistic reasons. Sometimes I forget how to spell.

[EvanFSU]

Anyone watch 30 days? There was a real good episode last week about the rights of homosexuals to adopt. This is another topic that seems to be gaining some momentum.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Great show and somewhat relevant to this conversation. I think tonight was an NRA member and gun activist. Great show everyone should check out

[JW]

BearKat,

I understand your point. The people writing the scriptures wrote in a specific time, culture, genre, etc. But here is my disagreement.

I will also state that Paul does speak to this act, being the scholar of the Law He knew of it.

And if Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, would that not mean that what was written in the Pentateuch would still apply at the time of Christ. The punishment appears to be handed out differently.

I would agree that we view things differently here in the United States, but that is not because the Bible does not apply to us, but moreso because we try to fit God into our tiny little framework. People, and especially the youth that I work with ask me, "why don't we see miraculous healings today as they were done in Jesus time?" It's not because they don't occur, its that the typical Christian (especially the western Christian) can't understand that to be possible within their framework. They place God inside a tiny little box, where it is us that should be in the box with the understanding that God can accomplish anything. Today I was told a story by a coworker about a young boy from Uganda (was part of the rebel military there for a couple of years ago) who was paralyzed on the right side of his body. Through prayer, this boy was healed, and wasn't just able to move it, but was sprinting after the bus as my friend and their group left. It is impossible for most Americans to believe that, and a lot of it is the American desire to be in control. We fight, work, and struggle to have control over every situation as opposed to understanding that we are not in control and then giving that power up to the one who is in control. Yahweh.

I don't think that we can discuss Scripture in a manner that says, "this part applies to our culture, and this part doesn't or can't." Culture does not penetrate Scripture or God, it's the other way around. God and the Bible have penetrated every culture around the world for centuries. Christ was the same in the First century, as He was when being described by the prophets, and will be the same when He comes to establish Heaven on earth in a New Jerusalem.

I believe it is totally within the rights of the country to dictate what they feel is right, but as long as I am living in this country, and have an opinion, I will continue to express that opinion. In a few years when God takes me to serve in Africa, I will care a little bit less about what is going on here, but for now, this is what I feel my God telling me. I believe it is my responsibility to preach the word of God, whether or not it is politically or socially correct.

And to restate: I am against homosexual acts, not the people themselves, just like i would be against lies, but not the people who tell those lies. Actions do not define people. Their heart is what defines them. My pre-marital sex does not define the person I am, my relationship with Christ defines who I am.

Written by Paul to "Timothy, my beloved son:" 2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 3:16,17
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Peace to you all. Have a safe holiday if we don't speak until then.

[JW]

[quote="JW"]My final question - If a man wanted to sleep with an animal and marry it, should he be permitted to do so?quote]

Thank you to the man that pointed out my unfortunate phrasing of this question.

After reading this again, I am very sorry for the implication that this comment makes. In no way do I consider homosexual acts to be that of beasteality or vice versa. This question is taken out of reading Leviticus where it discusses Homosexuality and beasteality separately but in the same passage. God created mankind to be in a place higher than that of the animals He created.

I am so sorry for this, and I pray that God will forgive my wording, and that you also will forgive me for it.

I know that I should have caught this, but this not being an excuse, but I am not perfect, and I praise God in my solitude for the man who pointed this out to me.

[FLAK]

My final question - If a man wanted to sleep with an animal and marry it, should he be permitted to do so.

That's a red herring argument if I ever heard one. The central question at hand is, "Should consenting adults be allowed to do what they want with each other?" I don't think a sheep has the requisite faculties to consent, no matter how hot someone thinks it is.

The Spanish Parliament has given human rights to Gorillas, so would a man wanting to marry a Gorilla in Spain be the same as two consenting adults?

[Steno]

no. the gorilla cannot possibly comprehend what marriage is, so it cannot consent to the union.

Think about age of consent - kids can't have sex with adults because they are deemed to be too immature; adults can call it rape if one member of a sexual union is impaired by alcohol. Think of monkeys as people who are permanently drunk.

[KnoxVegas]

In a few years when God takes me to serve in Africa, I will care a little bit less about what is going on here, but for now, this is what I feel my God telling me.

He talks directly to you, in a clear voice or you feel he talks to you? This has been a huge issue for me since I was a small child growing up in the Catholic church. There is a long list of people thoroughout time who felt that god spoke to them. From the saints on down to people the likes of Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Andrea Yates. Now society labels the last three as kooks or mentally ill but why are their claims discounted when say Joan of Arc or the writers of the Bible are not?

[Beta]

He talks directly to you, in a clear voice or you feel he talks to you?

It's a figure of speech (I would assume), since I am pretty sure it says in the bible that god does not talk to people.

-------------------------------------

Either way, it's hilarious that the issue of a man marrying a goat or whatever is being checked for its constitutional right. It's a friggin goat, or a gorilla, or a tree. It's a different species. Although, I am sure someone can try to prove that biologically since birth they were always attracted to certain types of ficcus, or blah blah blah.

I believe that one's sexual preference (albeit man, woman, tree) are a CHOICE...since it's an action that someone does...and you can choose not to do it...whether you like it or not. The human brain can be conditioned just like an animal's to salivate at the sound of a bell, the sight of a blonde, brunette, whatever. Regardless, proving some guy's brain is hard-wired a certain way to want other dudes...(to me) is like trying to convince me that my brain is hard-wired to liking green tea. Why not? It's something my brain tells me I want to do it...so obviously since I was an infant I've needed green tea, right? I hate eating crabs, I cannot fathom the thought of it. But if somehow there was a benefit towards doing so...over time I could get around it and in fact, enjoy it. We need to remember that we are in fact animals...albeit smarter animals...we're animals nonetheless.

If someone chooses to marry someone of their same sex, just let them f'n do it. Since it is a government-sanctioned legal issue...religion should not play any role in it. Religion is a CHOICE, your CHOICE. What you want to do with your body parts, also a CHOICE. People have been doing things against persecution for a long time. Religion is clearly a choice, and if someone can choose to remain a jew during the holocaust...then I am sure someone can choose to hold hands in public. Since someone brought up the issue of why someone would choose to do something against persecution, which happens all the time, every day.

Your wants, needs and other aspects of those natures are not hard-wired...you can change those things. Your race, sex, genetics are hard-wired...and cannot be changed (barring ridiculous surgery).

[JW]

In a few years when God takes me to serve in Africa, I will care a little bit less about what is going on here, but for now, this is what I feel my God telling me.

He talks directly to you, in a clear voice or you feel he talks to you? This has been a huge issue for me since I was a small child growing up in the Catholic church. There is a long list of people thoroughout time who felt that god spoke to them. From the saints on down to people the likes of Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Andrea Yates. Now society labels the last three as kooks or mentally ill but why are their claims discounted when say Joan of Arc or the writers of the Bible are not?

I do believe that God does talk to me, but not in the obvious angelic appearances or in my dreams. I believe that for me it is a still small voice in the silence of life when I hear God. God talks to me through the words of other believers to me. I would say that the difference between me, David Koresh, and Andrea Yates is that I am not hurting people.

God's words will not lead to people sinning. Yes in the Bible their was Holy Warfare, but that was in the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. There was warfare that God did not consider to be Holy and people were punished for it. I believe that Holy Warfare was for a time and place, and does not exist today. So like i said earlier, I don't believe that God's words to me will hurt people.

When I feel like I have heard God, I go through a couple of checks to make sure that it was not satan clouding my judgment, or my own consciousness.

1. I consult the word of God to make sure it is in line with God's will as stated in the Scripture.

2. I meditate or pray about what God had told me about.

3. I consult close and trusted Christian friends. Their words will either encourage me to follow this path, or take me back to prayer and consultation of the scripture.

So in my case: Going to Africa: As some of you know I am attending Dallas Theological Seminary. I have a year left in a Masters of Arts in Cross-Cultural Ministry.
My first semester I was taking a course called Introduction to World Missions. The professor, Dr. Mark Young, was taking us through the current statistical trends of the world. He showed us a movie about what the world is suffering, and then challenged us to prayerfully consider a life of missions. Through the video I felt God begin to formulate His calling for my life.
I began to pray over it, and continue to do so, as to know that I am always seeking God's will.
I consulted the Scripture to see what it said. I came up with: Acts 1:8, Matthew 28:19, Romans 10:14,15 and others that verified that this was God's will for us to preach the word, and that some are called to go to the ends of the earth with the Gospel. Then I consulted my pastor who I value as a Christian mentor and friend. Consulted other friends at school, my girlfriend, and it all came up the same - that God was calling me to the mission field.

Knox, that is my experience,

Thanks for asking.

[JW]

He talks directly to you, in a clear voice or you feel he talks to you?

It's a figure of speech (I would assume), since I am pretty sure it says in the bible that god does not talk to people.quote]


Beta, i don't think that is entirely accurate. A list of the people God talked to.
Adam and Eve,
Noah
Abraham
Jacob
Moses
Joshua
some of the Judges
Samuel
Elijah and Elisha
Jesus Christ
Saul of Tarsus (Paul)
John the Revelator

This is just a small list off the top of my head, if I were so inclined I could come up with a longer one i am sure.

I feel like the government can do whatever they want, but that is not going to stop me from trying to voice my opinion.

If the government decides that Marriage between same-sex people is appropriate, it won't cause me to leave the country, but I will not be one that will perform such a marriage.

Going out of town for the weekend, so forgive me if i don't respond until Sunday evening.

Last thing. Where is our moral line going to be drawn as a country. Over the last 100 years more and more has become morally acceptable in the general view of the American Culture. When are we going start thinking that divorce is a bad thing? When is adultery going to stop being glorified? When are we as Men going to begin to work on our own integrity? These questions are not one for a specific sub-culture of the US, but these questions permeate all of America.

Thanks everyone the discussion is awesome.

[MBlax327]

I believe that one's sexual preference (albeit man, woman, tree) are a CHOICE...since it's an action that someone does...and you can choose not to do it...whether you like it or not. The human brain can be conditioned just like an animal's to salivate at the sound of a bell, the sight of a blonde, brunette, whatever.

I disagree with this, although i don't know first hand the experience of finding men attractive. I find women attractive, and I think, that no matter how hard i tried i would not find men attractive in the same way. I don't think, that even with a benefit to being so, i could become a homosexual, i don't think i could choose to be a homosexual.

I don't see why it couldn't be the other way around. A child reaches sexual maturity and begins to notice what they find attractive. It very well could be, and without choosing asnything, they are simply attracted to men instead of women, like i am to women instead of men. Claiming that it is a genetic trait is not something i am trying to do, I'm just trying to say that i don't think it is, necessarily, a choice. Instead, it seems to me like someone would just be attracted to someone else, and that might include men, or exclude women, whatever the case may be.

However, i do appreciate that given that it is a choice, just like religion is a choice, that you have no problems with it. It's a lifestyle, let them live it.

[Beta]

Beta, i don't think that is entirely accurate. A list of the people God talked to

I am no bible scholar, it's more of a question.

But I was under the impression that god does not directly speak to people anymore.

I disagree with this, although i don't know first hand the experience of finding men attractive. I find women attractive, and I think, that no matter how hard i tried i would not find men attractive in the same way. I don't think, that even with a benefit to being so, i could become a homosexual, i don't think i could choose to be a homosexual.

If the human brain can be conditioned to strongly like or strongly dislike another person, food, etc. Why can't it be conditioned since birth to be attracted to the same sex?

[MBlax327]

Still, conditioning, doesn't qualify that as a choice......sorry if i am mincing at words here. But........that's not choosing, that's just realizing what you are attracted to.