Isn't time to take down the Bird Feeder?

Non-lacrosse specific topics.

Postby Gvlax on Fri May 30, 2008 5:25 am

Timbalaned wrote:
Gvlax wrote:Plus who can put on a roof in one day or drywall my fathers house in one day better than the immigrants? no one thats who.


Plenty of people can, hell I have done work like that. But the reality is since there are immigrants, some who will work at less that legal min wage, there is no need for "the mighty American" to stoop to that level. If there were more regulations, everyone was paid the same, benefits were given, then I think it wouldn't be just an "immigrant" job


Communism?
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Postby Chris Larson on Fri May 30, 2008 8:52 am

Gvlax wrote:
Timbalaned wrote:
Gvlax wrote:Plus who can put on a roof in one day or drywall my fathers house in one day better than the immigrants? no one thats who.


Plenty of people can, hell I have done work like that. But the reality is since there are immigrants, some who will work at less that legal min wage, there is no need for "the mighty American" to stoop to that level. If there were more regulations, everyone was paid the same, benefits were given, then I think it wouldn't be just an "immigrant" job


Communism?


No, obeying the current empoyment laws.
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Postby Gvlax on Fri May 30, 2008 10:20 am

Chris Larson wrote:
Gvlax wrote:
Timbalaned wrote:
Gvlax wrote:Plus who can put on a roof in one day or drywall my fathers house in one day better than the immigrants? no one thats who.


Plenty of people can, hell I have done work like that. But the reality is since there are immigrants, some who will work at less that legal min wage, there is no need for "the mighty American" to stoop to that level. If there were more regulations, everyone was paid the same, benefits were given, then I think it wouldn't be just an "immigrant" job


Communism?


No, obeying the current empoyment laws.


Ok to enforce all of those laws will cost millions on top of millions. So what would be the first step? I want to know what people think we should do. Saying "get rid of all the illegal immigrants" is not a very good proposal. Its not that easy as we want it to be. It comes down to where do we get the money and where do we start.

Also, for all of those companies that are not legit, what happens to them? Now they have to pay for workers who are legal who want to work that job. It will cost them more money so to keep out of the red they will need to let workers go, with the end result of losing more business. So how do we make everyone happy?
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Postby Tim Whitehead on Fri May 30, 2008 10:30 am

Anyone who knowingly pays illegal immigrants less than the legal wage, kick them out of the country. They are the ones hanging these bird feeders up and letting all the birds eat for free and poop on our house. Stop letting those bastards hang bird feeders and the birds will stop coming, and stay in Bird Mexico.
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Postby Gvlax on Fri May 30, 2008 10:37 am

Tim Whitehead wrote:Anyone who knowingly pays illegal immigrants less than the legal wage, kick them out of the country. They are the ones hanging these bird feeders up and letting all the birds eat for free and poop on our house. Stop letting those bastards hang bird feeders and the birds will stop coming, and stay in Bird Mexico.



ok, not feasible but yet a good try.
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Postby wheelz33 on Fri May 30, 2008 10:48 am

Tim Whitehead wrote:Anyone who knowingly pays illegal immigrants less than the legal wage, kick them out of the country. They are the ones hanging these bird feeders up and letting all the birds eat for free and poop on our house. Stop letting those bastards hang bird feeders and the birds will stop coming, and stay in Bird Mexico.


Does anyone know the penalty for paying illegal immigrants less then minimum wage, or any wage at all for that matter? While I doubt kicking them out of the country is feasible, perhaps a harsher penalty would make some of them think twice...
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Postby Gvlax on Fri May 30, 2008 10:53 am

wheelz33 wrote:
Tim Whitehead wrote:Anyone who knowingly pays illegal immigrants less than the legal wage, kick them out of the country. They are the ones hanging these bird feeders up and letting all the birds eat for free and poop on our house. Stop letting those bastards hang bird feeders and the birds will stop coming, and stay in Bird Mexico.


Does anyone know the penalty for paying illegal immigrants less then minimum wage, or any wage at all for that matter? While I doubt kicking them out of the country is feasible, perhaps a harsher penalty would make some of them think twice...


Death Penalty doesn't stop murders. Also, Im sure all of these celebs who pay to have their houses clean do detailed background check of their staff. Ship them out too then.
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Postby Beta on Fri May 30, 2008 11:33 am

Gvlax wrote:Death Penalty doesn't stop murders. Also, Im sure all of these celebs who pay to have their houses clean do detailed background check of their staff. Ship them out too then.


The death penalty doesn't stop murder because it isn't enforced constantly/consistently.

(estimation from 2004 data) 16,000 homicides last year and how many executions? 42? (http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm) We'll even assume only 25% of them get convicted...then only 1% of the murder convictions get executed. Yeah...that really strikes fear into my heart...but this is Kevin Bacon-ing off subject...so yeah...back to immigration.

I think the idea of deporting anyone who knowingly hires and illegal immigrant to work, is funny. But ridiculously stiff penalties SHOULD be the way to go. If someone willingly and knowingly commits a crime...then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Postby Tim Whitehead on Fri May 30, 2008 11:44 am

Gvlax wrote:Also, Im sure all of these celebs who pay to have their houses clean do detailed background check of their staff. Ship them out too then.


Exactly. The sooner the USA is rid of these left wing commie pinko nazi scumbag liberal douches the better. Look at those smug SOBs, bringing their perfect hair, white teeth and scientology to us while at the same time hiring people to clean their houses. Evil. Eeeeeevil! The celebrities hiring maids are the problem, not the major companies that hire thousands of illegals. Either way, if they wanna hire Mexicans, let them hire them in Mexico. I'm sure everyone would love to work for El Motor General!
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Postby Gvlax on Fri May 30, 2008 11:57 am

Beta wrote:
Gvlax wrote:Death Penalty doesn't stop murders. Also, Im sure all of these celebs who pay to have their houses clean do detailed background check of their staff. Ship them out too then.


The death penalty doesn't stop murder because it isn't enforced constantly/consistently.

(estimation from 2004 data) 16,000 homicides last year and how many executions? 42? (http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm) We'll even assume only 25% of them get convicted...then only 1% of the murder convictions get executed. Yeah...that really strikes fear into my heart...but this is Kevin Bacon-ing off subject...so yeah...back to immigration.

I think the idea of deporting anyone who knowingly hires and illegal immigrant to work, is funny. But ridiculously stiff penalties SHOULD be the way to go. If someone willingly and knowingly commits a crime...then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.



You make a good point. It is true if you believe the classical theory of criminal justice that swift punishment will reduce crime. The problem is our system of putting someone on death row is not perfect. The thought of a innocent man getting put on death row scares the hell out of me. If you dont think it happens read John Grisham's: The Innocent Man. If you think one innocent man is not enough to stop the killings, imagine if you were that one guy about to die. yeah, scary.

Same thing can apply to our situation here. We have the system in place to get them out of the country but yet we do not do it. We are greatly unmanned (border patrol is hiring like crazy, I know 1 alum at GVSU is down there now), Immigration is backlogged and that is only the start of it.

I know here in Michigan we are actually hurting because of crack down on illegals. Yeah i said hurting. Agriculture around the GR area depends on migrant workers, many of them illegals, to pick asparagus and blue berries. I saw a broadcast last summer how they can not get anyone to work it. Even the white man wont step up and do it... Now imagine that situation everywhere.
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Postby Beta on Fri May 30, 2008 12:02 pm

Gvlax wrote:I know here in Michigan we are actually hurting because of crack down on illegals. Yeah i said hurting. Agriculture around the GR area depends on migrant workers, many of them illegals, to pick asparagus and blue berries. I saw a broadcast last summer how they can not get anyone to work it. Even the white man wont step up and do it... Now imagine that situation everywhere.


Physical laborers should be paid more for what they do. It's in integral part of our society that we need.

Hell, I'd be a teacher if it paid more :lol:

But, in all honesty...perhaps there will be an equilibrium that will develop over time. Once the supply meets the demand of all employment...the supply (in this case immigrants) will not move here since being homeless in America isn't better than staying in their countries.

Which is why (correct) foreign developmental aid IMHO is a must for our neighbors.

Or in the blogger's terms...if you make the home-tree nicer...the birds won't want to leave.
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Postby Y_laxfan on Fri May 30, 2008 1:54 pm

Beta...whats the source info for that youtube video you posted? Date given, name of presenter, anything else?
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Postby Jana on Fri May 30, 2008 4:10 pm

I can think of 5 people off the top of my head who needed to renovate their homes and chose to use illegal immigrants, because they didn't have the money to pay for legal contractors.

That said, maybe they should have done less work on the homes and used legal contractors.

If we did pay people more money to work the farms, the cost of food at the supermarket could easily triple. Consider the complaints right now as food prices are inflated due to rising transportation costs. The hue and cry from the average consumer would be tremendous if apples went from $1.79 / pound to $5.37 / pound.

Now consider the price of food at your local restaurant (most likely prepared in the back by folks who's native language is Espanol) - a $12 plate of food now costs $36.

This would severely hamper our consumer driven economy and if we are realistic, we know the economy would contract without low wage workers. There are some costs related to having them here, specific to the schools and the hospital bills.

But the value in services that they provide far outweights the costs. The hospital bills have more to do with the inefficient health care system, and the outlandish prices listed for "private pay" individuals. I had a lab done last month - the original cost was $153, my insurance company paid $12 and said I didn't have to pay anything else on the bill. How did the lab company come up with $153 as the original price?

What we need is efficient immigration, it is hampered at present by the backlog of background checks at homeland security, and the unwillingness to legitimize people who are already here, already working (not living off of welfare), and already paying sales taxes, gas taxes, car tabs, and rent (which helps cover property taxes paid by the landlord).

This is one area where I agree with McCain more than Obama - we need a more realistic immigratin policy.

BTW, after watching the video last night, I don't think the numbers on his graph are correct. Based on the hairstyles the video appears to be shot in the mid to late 1980's. First - he has far more people in the country as of 2008 than demographers report. I think we have appx 300 million. Second, I fail to see how the steady 10- 20 million undocumented workers presently in the country explode to 500 million so quickly. I question the math and the assumptions of how many children immigrants will have per family. Most reduce closer to American size families by the 2nd generation. They now have more access to family planning options, and assimilate to the prevailing American philosophy that providing more resouces to fewer children sets them up for success in the long term.

Where is the peer review of the speaker's demographics?
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Postby swampthing on Fri May 30, 2008 10:57 pm

Beta wrote:Or in the blogger's terms...if you make the home-tree nicer...the birds won't want to leave.


Yeah but immigrants also flee to America to avoid working in the conditions of a horrible dictator such as Fidel Castro (Cuba was #4 in immigration, almost 1/4 of Mexico's number), and we all know how people react to wars fought to remove dictators . . . *quietly pointing to the liberal*. jk I don't support inefficient wars either, but I did want to point out a reason that "making the home-tree nicer" isn't always an option. Or in the blogger's terms . . . if the bird is being chased by a flying coyote (I'm sad to say that even as a Biology major I can honestly not think of what a typical bird's predator is . . . ) he may be forced to leave.
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Postby swampthing on Fri May 30, 2008 11:15 pm

Jana wrote: I had a lab done last month - the original cost was $153, my insurance company paid $12 and said I didn't have to pay anything else on the bill. How did the lab company come up with $153 as the original price?


I was at Seton NW (Austin, TX) last summer and they told me that they just play a price game with the insurance company where they list a price and the insurance company only pays what the Nat'l average rate is for that procedure, but if they miss low they get that price.

Can anyone verify this though, because I honestly can't imagine it being that simple.
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