Discussion Topic for today

[KnoxVegas]

But 'under God' was not originally in the Pledge of Allegiance. They added it in during the Cold War.

This is true.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Also, as an aside, the hand-over-the-heart salute during the Pledge changed around 1939-1940 due to the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. American's used to raise their right arms and turn their palms upwards, similar to the Nazi salute.

The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) supports Dr. Rex Curry's discovery that the Nazi salute originated in the United States. Dr. Curry showed that the USA's early pledge of allegiance to the flag (1892) used a straight-arm salute and it was the source of the salute of the monstrous National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis). The salute of German Socialists has sometimes been labeled an "ancient Roman salute." Dr. Curry helped to establish that it was not an ancient Roman salute, and that the "ancient Roman salute" is a modern myth that grew during and after the lives of Edward Bellamy (1850-1898) and Francis Bellamy (1855-1931).
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html

[KnoxVegas]

"I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who also happens to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my Church on public matters—and the Church does not speak for me."

I believe this is where separation of chuch and state began.

P.S. This is from a speech delivered by JFK in Houston, TX on September 12, 1960.

No, I think it was a little earlier than that, as Coach Graff pointed out, with the framers of our Constitution. Now it's those damn "activist judges" who keep reminding us of that little principle, outlawing Christmas displays, the 10 commandments rock in the Alabama courthouse, etc.

The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment does not call for a separation between church and state. It just simply states that Congress shall make no laws establishing a state religion.

The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendments.html

The separation of church and state argument comes from the citing of a letter from Jefferson in a Supreme Court decision in 1947.

The Separation of Church and State

by David Barton

In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, “The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.” The “separation of church and state” phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9

[Adam Gamradt]

So Sonny,

FairTax seems to be regressive in nature, but I admit I don't know enough about the specifics.

It also seems that FairTax, if implemented, would immediately create a black market for every single consumer good and service.

How would you counter these two problems?

[Adam Gamradt]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

This is pretty clear to me. If I don't believe in god, I don't want to be subjected to it in a government setting.

My right to NOT exercise religion is equally important as your right TO exercise your religion.

I think we can all agree, rational discussion is too often inhibited by claims that god is on our side.

I forget the speaker (JFK?), but it goes something like this.

"I pray not that god is on our side, but instead that we are on the side of god."

[Dulax31]

I've read the fairtax book by Neal Boortz, and while the idea seems great (removing all forms of tax other then a 23% retail sales tax) It's implication would definately cause black market initially and the economy would suffer greatly because people wouldn't want to buy stuff at a 23% tax. There are just so many problems with the Fairtax plan that I can't even begin to describe.

Oh, and another thing, remember when Congress ratified the 16th amendment to tax the Income of the wealthy back in 1913?? Well everyone was all for it because it sounded like a great idea to tax the rich, but our government later on took advantage of this amendment and countinued to tax the Income from everyone rich to poor.

All I'm saying is I'd be careful what we wish for, because even though the idea might seem great now, god only knows what our government will do with their power once given.

[Sonny]

I've read the fairtax book by Neal Boortz, and while the idea seems great (removing all forms of tax other then a 23% retail sales tax) It's implication would definately cause black market initially and the economy would suffer greatly because people wouldn't want to buy stuff at a 23% tax. There are just so many problems with the Fairtax plan that I can't even begin to describe.

There is already a black market. Many people who violate the law will continue to do so, regardless of the tax system employed.

The Fair Tax would be the greatest economic stimulus our economy has ever seen. Furthermore, it would let American companies/investors compete on a level playing field with the rest of world. No more reason for people/companies to hold their wealth abroad to shield it from US taxes.

If you read his book completely, all of the so-called problems are pretty much addressed.

Oh, and another thing, remember when Congress ratified the 16th amendment to tax the Income of the wealthy back in 1913 to pay for WW1?? Well everyone was all for it because it sounded like a great idea to tax the rich, but our government later on took advantage of this amendment and countinued to tax the Income from everyone rich to poor.

All I'm saying is I'd be careful what we wish for, because even though the idea might seem great now, god only knows what our government will do with their power once given.

If we went to the Fair Tax we would take the govt out of the equation to the extent that they couldn't manipulate tax code to retain power or buy votes.

[KnoxVegas]

Oh, and another thing, remember when Congress ratified the 16th amendment to tax the Income of the wealthy back in 1913 to pay for WW1??.

The 16th Amendment was passed under the guise that it would only be invoked in times of emergency, not necessarily WWI since US involvement was still 5 years into the future at that point.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[KnoxVegas]

"I pray not that god is on our side, but instead that we are on the side of god."

"There's a wonderful story about Abraham Lincoln during the middle of the Civil War, bringing in a group of leaders, and at the end of the meeting, one of the leaders says, 'Mr. President, can we pray? Can we please join in prayer that God is on our side?" And Abraham Lincoln's response was: "I won't join you in that prayer, but I'll join you in a prayer that we're on God's side."

http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/transcripts_071604_kerry.html

Fact: Abraham Lincoln was a member of the Republican party.

From Sen. Barry Goldwater's (AZ) obituary in the 30 May 1998 edition of The Washington Post:

"A lot of so-called conservatives today don't know what the word means," he told the Los Angeles Times in a 1994 interview. "They think I've turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That's a decision that's up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the religious right. It's not a conservative issue at all."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/may98/goldwater30.htm

Goldwater also stated, when asked about the religious right and its growing influence on the modern Republican party, "Frankly, it scares the hell out of me"

If you have a chance please watch the doucmeentary by CeCe Goldwater, the senator's neice, currently running on HBO this month.

Fact: Barry Goldwater was a member of the Republican party.

[scooter]

...removing "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Pledge of Allegiance itslef is a crock. It was started way back in the day by a flag maker for advertising.

Obviously one of the best promotions ever

[KnoxVegas]

IMHO, The Spanish-American War was. Thanks, Mr. Hearst!

[Dulax31]

Even if you pass the fairtax plan, the 16th amendment is still in our constitution. So initially there would be both an Income tax and a Retail Sales tax. How do you deal with that?

[Sonny]

Even if you pass the fairtax plan, the 16th amendment is still in our constitution. So initially there would be both an Income tax and a Retail Sales tax. How do you deal with that?

Obviously they would have to repeal the 16th amendment.

[KnoxVegas]

To all the posters on this board that are still in school:

Take a Constitutional Lax class!

For those out of school, find a way to take one if you have not already.

Not a sermon. Just a thought!

[Dulax31]

Even if you pass the fairtax plan, the 16th amendment is still in our constitution. So initially there would be both an Income tax and a Retail Sales tax. How do you deal with that?

Obviously they would have to repeal the 16th amendment.

That could take years. Not to mention what happens if it doesnt get repealed.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic I guess.

[Hackalicious]

...removing "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Pledge of Allegiance itslef is a crock. It was started way back in the day by a flag maker for advertising.

Obviously one of the best promotions ever

It's ironic that it was written by a socialist, and of course, didn't contain the poetic meter-killing words "under god" until the 50's.