Div 1 All-America

The 2013 tournament returns to Greenville, SC this May.

Postby BYULAX31 on Mon May 19, 2008 4:32 pm

It happens all the time. Last year Mark Davis was 2nd team All-Conference and 1st team All-America. The year before same thing with Marshall Kay, 2nd Team AC 1st Team AA.
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Postby glennking on Mon May 19, 2008 7:52 pm

steveperry wrote:interesting to see two of the highest scoring offenses in the country, ASU and CHAPMAN, ranked #2 and #6, both in the final four of the tournament, have a combined total of 5 players on the list (2 from Chapman and 3 from ASU), which is equal to the number that the lower ranked Sonoma State has on the list. Not to mention the WCLL, with 8 teams in the top 25, has only 12 players total (The PCLL, with one team in the top 25 has 8 players, or 2/3 of the entire WCLL).

there is a lot to question about this list, and I hope that details of the selection process are made public.


Exactly! The offensive players I immediately noticed missing from ASU and Chapman...

not one of these players got AA honors...

---Mike Farinelli- 4th highest scoring middie in WCLL, 2nd team All-Conference, 1st team All-Conference last year
---Mike Clayton - OFFENSIVE MVP of tournament!!! , 2nd team All-Conference, hat tricks in all tournament games? (not quite sure)
---Derek Mills - 1st team All Conference, don't know any other stats but have seen him play. The kid is good. Great showing vs. BYU
---Connor Martin - 2nd leading scorer on Chapman, 3rd team All-Conference, played some great games like his 8 pts. against UCSB, avg. 4+ pts. per game
---Eric Nelson - led ASU in goals/points (regular season + playoffs), 3rd in points in WCLL, most points in WCLL playoffs, 2nd team All-Conference, D1 All-Tournament team (most votes??), beat Minnesota Duluth :D

... I'm not trying to take anything away from the players that did make the AA list. I'm sure they all deserve to be recognized.

Echoing the thoughts of Steve Perry... how is it that many of the leaders of the best offensive teams in the country don't get recognized for being so?.... Yes, the AA award is an individual award, but you would expect the best teams to have a large amount of the best individuals, right?

thoughts....
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Postby steveperry on Tue May 20, 2008 4:20 pm

glennking wrote:
Echoing the thoughts of Steve Perry... how is it that many of the leaders of the best offensive teams in the country don't get recognized for being so?.... Yes, the AA award is an individual award, but you would expect the best teams to have a large amount of the best individuals, right?

thoughts....


That fact that those guys would not even get on the honorable mention list is troubling. You have offensive players on the list that have between 19-30 points on the season (Second team and down), some of them on teams with no wins against top 25 teams, and less than competitive schedules, (please let me know how Lindenwood has 4 players on the list over players like the ones that Glennking mentions). For the final four this year, 5 players total from Chapman and ASU and 18 total from BYU and Michigan. I would love to hear some better reasoning for these picks than coaches should have pushed their players harder. You would think being number 2 and 6 in the country with wins over some of the best teams in the country might demand some respect for the players that put them there.
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Postby SDSULAX on Tue May 20, 2008 4:42 pm

You have to be on your conference's First or Second All Conference team as a prerequisite to be nominated for MCLA All America recognition.
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Postby PBJLaxerDogItUp on Tue May 20, 2008 5:11 pm

The WCLL thought it was OK to Leave Mike Clayton, "Offensive Player of The Tournament", off the first team... setting him up for neglect in the All-American Selections. Clayton's case is the strongest snubbing of the year. Keeping him out of the All-American selection takes away from the prestige of the honor. There is a reason good teams go far in the playoffs, and in the case of ASU and Chapman there weren't only two players from each team racking up points and picking up ground-balls allowing them to go deep into playoffs...
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Postby glennking on Tue May 20, 2008 6:32 pm

SDSULAX wrote:You have to be on your conference's First or Second All Conference team as a prerequisite to be nominated for MCLA All America recognition.


ok.. that still applies to 4 out of the 5 people that I mentioned
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Postby steveperry on Tue May 20, 2008 7:37 pm

SDSULAX wrote:You have to be on your conference's First or Second All Conference team as a prerequisite to be nominated for MCLA All America recognition.


???

LSA All League

Attack

3rd
Bryce Wolf - TTU

=

MCLA DIVISION 1 ALL-AMERICA THIRD TEAM

Midfield Bryce Wolf - Texas Tech University

Any explanation here? I am sure that his 45 points in his team's 0 and 4 record against Top 25 teams was more impressive than anyone on ASU or Chapman that did not make the list... :)
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Postby creasemonkey on Tue May 20, 2008 10:47 pm

Chris Larson wrote:Player nomination forms must be completed by the head coach. This includes stats, previous awards (national & conference), and coach’s comments - particularly useful for defensemen and other non-glamour positions. It’s important for a coach to demonstrate that he believes his player is worthy of nomination. Many coaches do not do an adequate job of this.

Haha non glamour? its all about how you look at the game
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Postby Zamboni_Driver on Wed May 21, 2008 2:12 pm

I'm surprised to see so many comments about All-American honors that are tying the player's skill to the overall performance of the team.

I would bet many on here, if they took a second, could find examples of players that were far superior but were surrounded by weak players and thus the team record was not impressive. Or the opposite where a bunch of middle talented players came together and worked great as a team and won a bunch of games.

I'd even have to go as far as to say that great players that are surrounded by other great players have to "show more" to get respect, because anyone can look good when others around you help you out.
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Postby glennking on Wed May 21, 2008 3:52 pm

Zamboni_Driver wrote:I'm surprised to see so many comments about All-American honors that are tying the player's skill to the overall performance of the team.

I would bet many on here, if they took a second, could find examples of players that were far superior but were surrounded by weak players and thus the team record was not impressive. Or the opposite where a bunch of middle talented players came together and worked great as a team and won a bunch of games.

I'd even have to go as far as to say that great players that are surrounded by other great players have to "show more" to get respect, because anyone can look good when others around you help you out.


Of course there are great players that play for bad teams, but not to the extent that is shown in the All-American awards. I'm surprised that so many of the top players for certain teams weren't acknowledged. The BEST teams are the ones that have the BEST players! Am I wrong?

p.s. I'm not trying to disrespect those that did get AA recognition.
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Postby steveperry on Wed May 21, 2008 3:54 pm

Zamboni_Driver wrote:I'm surprised to see so many comments about All-American honors that are tying the player's skill to the overall performance of the team.

I would bet many on here, if they took a second, could find examples of players that were far superior but were surrounded by weak players and thus the team record was not impressive. Or the opposite where a bunch of middle talented players came together and worked great as a team and won a bunch of games.

I'd even have to go as far as to say that great players that are surrounded by other great players have to "show more" to get respect, because anyone can look good when others around you help you out.


Really? That is a pretty tough argument when 29 of the AAs are from top 5 teams, and 43 are from the top 10. A player like Clayton from Chapman is not a "middle" talented player, neither are the other ASU and Chapman players mentioned. "Middle" talented players don't put up those kind of points against the best teams in the country. Is it "middle" talented players that are now on the list that put up great points against lesser opponents, but could not help their team win games against better teams? We are only really talking offense here, but are you going to tell me that there are no defenders worthy of being AA, even honorable mention, on ASU or CHAPMAN? Since both teams, especially Chapman, BEAT those teams that have the majority of All-Americans, Michigan excluded, how could you make that argument? Michigan has 2 close D, and 2 defensive specialists on the list. BYU has 3 d guys, as does Duluth. I guess all of those kids are just top notch, and there is no way that they are a collection of hard working "middle" talent players, like that of ASU and Chapman, who I guess were just really lucky to get where they are, considering Chapman beat the BYU "super team" with 9 AA players, ASU over Duluth with 6 AA player, Chapman over Sonoma with 5 AA players, etc...

The best indicator of how these awards went is a breakdown by conference. Michigan players overwhelm the First team all league for the CCLA, because who else is going to be there (Michigan State at number 25 is a bit off)? The PCLL, with one team in the top 25, with 8 guys, mostly first team all league, right? Then, the WCLL, with 8 teams in the top 25, 2 teams in the final 4, and a huge 12 guys as AA, most of them coming from Sonoma, a team that lost in the first round of the tournament, and did not make the WCLL championships. How is there not more weight given to the All-Conference honors to a conference of 20 teams, 8 of which are in the top 25, over a 4 TEAM CONFERENCE like the RMLC (16 AAs THIS YEAR), or many of the other conferences with ONE dominant team every year.

It is hard to put a lot of legitimacy into this year's award of All-America after taking a close look at the list. That does not mean there are not good players on that list, because there are some great ones, but many simply do not pass the "smell" test when put against top players from top teams that were barely represented.
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Postby glennking on Wed May 21, 2008 4:04 pm

I agree with everything that Steve Perry just said... How are there only 2 All-Americans on a team that finished 2nd in the country!!! That's a bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
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Postby Dr. Jason Stockton on Wed May 21, 2008 4:15 pm

steveperry wrote:
SDSULAX wrote:You have to be on your conference's First or Second All Conference team as a prerequisite to be nominated for MCLA All America recognition.

???
LSA All League
Attack
3rd
Bryce Wolf - TTU
=
MCLA DIVISION 1 ALL-AMERICA THIRD TEAM

Midfield Bryce Wolf - Texas Tech University


If this is correct, then you are absolutely right here. No player should be on the AA list if they are not first or second team in their own league - the league that knows them the best.

It is not an exact science picking AAs, and I know when I cast my votes one of the criteria I use is where a player is on his league's all-conference team.

Typically, I will give a higher rating to a first team all-WCLL player over a second team player from any conference. . .you take in a lot of factors, including honors and awards won, coaches comments, conference directors comments, year in school, overall ranking in conference (rankings are done by conference directors). . .there is a lot to digest and it is an arduous process. I spent about 4 hours putting together by D2 ballot this season. I'm sure all of the voters went through a similar process and did the best job they could given the information they were provided.
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Postby Zamboni_Driver on Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 am

steveperry wrote:
Zamboni_Driver wrote:I'm surprised to see so many comments about All-American honors that are tying the player's skill to the overall performance of the team.

I would bet many on here, if they took a second, could find examples of players that were far superior but were surrounded by weak players and thus the team record was not impressive. Or the opposite where a bunch of middle talented players came together and worked great as a team and won a bunch of games.

I'd even have to go as far as to say that great players that are surrounded by other great players have to "show more" to get respect, because anyone can look good when others around you help you out.


Really? ...

It is hard to put a lot of legitimacy into this year's award of All-America after taking a close look at the list. That does not mean there are not good players on that list, because there are some great ones, but many simply do not pass the "smell" test when put against top players from top teams that were barely represented.


So you are talking specifics - where I'm not. I would never comment on guys that should or should not be on the list, because I don't get to see them all play on a consistent basis. My point is AA are individual awards. The performance of the team is not a directly proportional to the talent of 1 player. Now, there is a large indirect correlation to talented players winning games and championships. Which is why I believe I read that teams with higher ranks get more nominations (maybe at the conference level here??)

The take home hypothetical here is the best player in the country might be on a terrible team and because his teammates can not pass and catch, his stats are held to average by national standards and the teams winning percentage is low. Whereas a "middle" talent player can play on a tremendously talented team where he doesn't draw quick doubles or shut offs, and has people who can get him the ball. You have to ask, if the second player was on the first bad team, how would he do??

Again, my point is to make people think about this favorite player outside of their biased viewpoint. This doesn't mean after a moment of thought their favorite player still doesn't make the list, he still may be very deserving- but maybe the arguments can be better than team winning percentage, or how tough a league is.
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Postby Chris Larson on Thu May 22, 2008 11:08 am

glennking wrote:I agree with everything that Steve Perry just said... How are there only 2 All-Americans on a team that finished 2nd in the country!!! That's a bunch of malarkey if you ask me.


Quite possibly due to the number of players from that team on the nominations submitted. Hmmmmm.....
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