div 2

The 2013 tournament returns to Greenville, SC this May.

Postby Buc_em_up on Mon May 19, 2008 10:52 pm

Congrats on a great season both Westminster and GVSU, def. enjoyed playing both of you.

In regards to the DI or DII question, I don't see the complaint that GVSU has, they are lucky to be in DII. If they were in DI they probably wouldn't have even made it to the tourney. On Wikipedia it shows that, of the teams that GVSU played, they are by far the biggest.
1,200 here at SU
10,000 at UST
2500 at WC
23,000 at GVSU.

It is agreed upon by GVlax that teams need to be in the appropriate divisions, but it doesnt seem to me that teams with enrollment over 15 or 20K should be in DII anyways.

I dont know, both teams in the championship were great teams this year, I just think it's weird that people are asking when WC is gonna move up and their school is a tenth of the size of GVSU. Just seems like we really need to decide a cut-off enrollment, stick to it, and enforce it so that this question will stop comming up.
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Postby laxmid1077 on Mon May 19, 2008 11:22 pm

I dont think GVSU is complaining. First trip to nationals and they make the NC game. You aren't going to find a player on that team that is complaining, especially the seniors who brought the program from a 2-6 season their first year, to a 18-2 year with their first top 20 poll ranking, and a number two seed and an appearance in the national championship game. As for them being division 2. Valley is a commuter school with only about 2500-3000 students living on campus or within 5 miles of the university. The rest of their "students" are commuter students or non-traditional students. They also have three remote locations which is included in their enrollment numbers. It would be hard to say students who attend a location over 100 miles away at the Traverse City location and 40 miles away in Muskegon should be included in their numbers. Again though I'm sure non of their players are pissed off or anything like that about the outcome of their season, they should be very proud about where they have taken that program.
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Postby Buc_em_up on Tue May 20, 2008 12:11 am

I had no idea it was a commuter college, and you are right they aren't really complaining. I just thought that bringing up the question of what division teams should fall under seemed odd from a team that I thought was playing in DII but should possibly be considered for DI due to enrollment. Now that I know that they are really only working with a school about the same size as everyone else I don't have any qualms about them playing in DII. I was not trying to bash them at all, seem like a great group of guys and are certainly a great team, congrats!

However, I do think that a team like U of Montana with 14,000 students made the right move up to DI. It doesn't even seem fun to be so much bigger and beat small schools if you can be comparable in enrollment and competitiveness with DI schools.

A team like Westminster is probably good enough to annually compete with DI schools, but I wouldn't ever expect them move up being so small.
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Postby Gvlax on Tue May 20, 2008 6:33 am

yes, no one is complaining about being number 2. My message got lost when someone focused on the whole D2 trophy rather than the point i was trying to get across. So i am done trying to make a point and instead i am going to go look through the 5,000 photos that parents took over the weekend and think of the great season GVSU had.

As far as what laxmid said. Yes gvsu is a commuter school, anyone who wants to drive out to the main GVSU campus in Allendale, MI, aka BFE, will see that GVSU is far from a school that has 20,000 students enrolled. But if MCLA wants to go by numbers then oh well.
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Postby cjwilhelmi on Tue May 20, 2008 11:44 am

Small schools can participate and do extremely well in Div 1. Here at Lindenwood we have an undergraduate enrollment of ------- and have won our conference 4 years in a row. Yes we got blown out by Michigan in the first round, actually been blown out by them twice this year. Blue is no longer my favorite color and don't quite know what the hell maize is.

Small schools in Div 1 Tournament: (these numbers are not from a reputable source)
Lindenwood: 6000 undergraduates
Minnesota Duluth: 9,172 undergraduates
Sonoma State: 8,400 undergraduates

Large schools in Div 2 Tournament: (these numbers are not from a reputable source)
UC Santa Cruz: 13,941 undergraduates
Grand Valley State: 19,806 undergraduates

It does not matter whether students are commuter or if they are not all on the same campus (see Claremont). The bottom line is the amount of potential athletes there are based upon the total undergraduate enrollment.

Yes Div 2 was set up as a place for small schools but just look at the above to see that perception is not always reality. Unless the national board changes this then teams will move up to Div 1 for better competition.
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Postby cjwilhelmi on Tue May 20, 2008 11:46 am

bste_lax wrote:If GVSU wants, I will allow anyone to fly to LA to get their second place high-five from me.


Virtual High Five

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Postby Pinball on Tue May 20, 2008 1:51 pm

cjwilhelmi wrote: Unless the national board changes this then teams will move up to Div 1 for better competition.


At last years meeting a member was assigned to research this very topic, not sure if anything will be proposed when the "heads of state" meet this summer.
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Postby GCCLAX3 on Tue May 20, 2008 11:20 pm

Maybe we are spoiled in the CCLA, which some of you call bush league as i heard all throughout the stands this weekend, giving the top 3 teams trophy's but at least they give credit to the guys keeping them in business.


Not that it matters, but we finished 4th in the CCLA and even we got a trophy, which yes is a little bit absurd, but we appreciated it. It was the first year we made the CCLA Tourney and will help us to remember that fact. Not to mention the embarrassment that a 4th place trophy provides that will drive us back for Hopefully a better showing next year.

I didnt even know they made 4th place trophies...
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trophies...

Postby Ryan Jackson on Wed May 28, 2008 1:10 am

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but my mind wandered back to it while I was bored... I think that having 2nd and 3rd (maybe even 4th) place trophies would be a great way to spend tournament money...
I know that many schools would love to put their club team's trophy on display.

The NCAA currently awards 87 national championships yearly; 44 women's, 40 men's, and three coed championships where men and women compete together (Fencing, Rifle, and Skiing). For every NCAA sanctioned sport other than Division I FBS football, the NCAA awards wooden trophies with gold, silver, and bronze plating for the first, second, and third place teams respectively; similar to the Olympics. In the case of the NCAA basketball tournaments, both semifinalists who did not make the championship game receive bronze plated trophies for third place (prior to 1982 the teams played a "consolation" game to determine third place). Similar trophies are awarded to both semifinalists in the NCAA football tournaments (which are conducted in Division I FCS and both lower divisions), which have never had a third-place game...

And on another note, when you're trying to build a 'program' instead of just a club, a trophy carries more clout than a website when it comes to school funding.
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Postby BB on Wed May 28, 2008 12:28 pm

[quote="GCCLAX3"] at least they give credit to the guys keeping them in business.
quote]

This is not a business in the reality, that there is no CEO or Board that is making dinero off of this from you. (Not in the way that it doesn't take a lot of effort to run, and does cost money)

Wake up, they have put this thing together because they(BOD/Coaches/Volunteers) care. You should be thanking them for giving you the opportunity to play in a nationally based competitive league, they are all volunteers covering their costs because they care about the game, and this league they have put their hearts and souls in to..

Stop being babies. Man, I didn't think I was getting too old, but apparently the generation that didn't have losers is now in college. Everyone is a winner, great job on being second best. When you were a kid did they not keep score in games in order to boost self esteem and not hurt feelings and protect you from the real world in which people actually lose, and feelings are hurt?

You had a great year, and were able to showcase how good you were in the spotlight, you will have those memories forever. Cheer up.

As to the previous post. That is the only valid argument I have heard for a 2nd, 3rd place trophy. Schools do love trophy cases, and it might be a good way to validate the league a bit with the administration.
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Postby Gvlax on Wed May 28, 2008 12:50 pm

BB wrote:
GCCLAX3 wrote: at least they give credit to the guys keeping them in business.
quote]


As to the previous post. That is the only valid argument I have heard for a 2nd, 3rd place trophy. Schools do love trophy cases, and it might be a good way to validate the league a bit with the administration.


As i posted before, the school called me to see when i could get them the trophy, that is why i posted on here in the first place. Im sick of people who want to start complaining about people who ask questions on here. I asked a question, a simple yes or no would have worked but then people like you have to go and put everyone down who thought maybe other teams should get recognition. We pay thousands of dollars to be in this league, sorry for wasting your precious time with this stupid question.

And to answer you question, no my 4th place soccer team did not receive any trophy when i was growing up. But we did get a trophy when we came in 2nd the next year. Yes we knew there are winner and losers, but the league still allowed us to show off our accomplishments.
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Postby Johnnielax13 on Wed May 28, 2008 3:10 pm

Gvlax wrote:Has it always been that only 1st place gets recognition for their national championship with a trophy? I think its sketchy that GVSU doesnt get something besides memories. no 2nd place trophy at nationals....


You are right, you did ask a question. But it was how you phrased it that pissed people off. If you had wanted to, you could have started a real discussion if you had been polite, but to call something that you are admittedly unfamiliar with, as "sketchy" doesn't exactly inspire other people to join into a thoughtful conversation. You just wanted to troll around and take out your frustration by trying to get a rise out of people.
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Postby gibertjs on Wed May 28, 2008 4:11 pm

GvLax, you have been on the forum for two years, roughly how long I have been on. I have made 50 some odd posts, about once every two weeks on average. You have made 15 times that amount, about once a day on average, including summer, holidays, sick time, the playoffs. There are times where on one thread you make three posts in a row. On this thread there was one point where you made 6 out of 8. You need to get a job,a girlfriend, and a life.
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Postby BB on Wed May 28, 2008 5:13 pm

Gvlax wrote:Has it always been that only 1st place gets recognition for their national championship with a trophy? I think its sketchy that GVSU doesnt get something besides memories. no 2nd place trophy at nationals....


This sounds like sour grapes to me, not like an honest question from someone enquiring about a way to answer to the administration within your school. I know it's tough to read into "tone" in email. But I feel I have this one pretty clear.

Gvlax wrote:Something like 25 goals in the tourney plus 107 points in the regular season and no All-America for Cameron Holding... interesting.


More Sour grapes- but this time for a different reason.

Gvlax wrote:MCLA still needs to come a long way. Nothing to show for a great season besides a dvd we can buy and some pictures. This makes me so furious, we are trying to make this league so legit with professional webcast, snazzy logos but nothing for the actuall players that make up the MCLA. lets get our priorites straight already.


Here you are actually mad at the MCLA "Furious" to be specific. Again missing the point that this entire league is "for the players and the game". The people who run it get little out of it other than the satisfaction that they have helped promote lacrosse, and helped student athlets like yourself with an incredible experience in organized lacrosse that is head and shoulders more competitive than a beer league.

These are a few of the reasons you are getting a strong reaction.

I wasn't even responding to your post, as I had thought you had gotten over it.

If it was the adminstration, why don't you try this next time. "Hey guys, I had a request from the administration for a second place trophy for the trophy rack. Now I know we don't have them right now, but it would be nice for recruiting visits, and to help with our visibility within our administration"

That would have most likely garnered much more respect from the rest of the folks on these boards, many on here who are the backbone, of the MCLA that you rip on.

To me it seems you came into the idea that a trophy was requested by your administration a little late in the discussion, all too conviently.
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Postby nhoskins on Wed May 28, 2008 6:32 pm

BB wrote:
To me it seems you came into the idea that a trophy was requested by your administration a little late in the discussion, all too conviently.


Or you could make your own trophy. I think a giant hand giving a high five would look great. Or maybe two hands, to symbolize second place. :lol:
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